Velika Popovska 64 year old woman turned away from Greek border 10th July 2012

[Vangelovski]

I would like to know what you (I mean those who criticize UMD) are doing for the Macedonians and Macedonia, besides criticize all the others. From what I know, all of you are completely inexistent, outside this forum! So, your opinion about UMD leaves me completely indifferent. Go on with what you are doing. Who cares!!!!!

Vodenka, you are free NOT to post or read this forum. Just remember that. But if you want to advertise yourself and UMD on this forum, you will be questioned and criticised (where necessary) and you will be expected to respond.

[Risto the Great]

Vodenka,
the UMD were questioned on this forum. The questions were genuine and sincere to begin with. Then more pressure was placed upon them to respond and they continued to remain evasive. The questions to this day have not changed but the faith in UMD has diminished entirely due to their actions on public record. They are not the voice of the Macedonian Diaspora no matter how hard they present themselves as such.

You are now their representative because they paid for your membership somewhere. Yet you are not entirely sure what they stand for. You are not alone.

[Phoenix]

I would like to know what you (I mean those who criticize UMD) are doing for the Macedonians and Macedonia, besides criticize all the others. From what I know, all of you are completely inexistent, outside this forum! So, your opinion about UMD leaves me completely indifferent. Go on with what you are doing. Who cares!!!!!

...vodenka, sometimes the Macedonian cause is actually better served keeping silent than the foot-in-mouth approach characterized by a certain organization...

[Angliski]

Sorry, George S. Clever and knowledgeable chap that I am, I don't know, nor have I ever heard anything about, the journalism for hire incident you refer to, but it sounds a nasty business, indeed. - if it's true since so many things in journalism are just BS.

I never went to Greek school so I don't know what Greeks are taught, but we were certainly taught about the Nazi's in the schools were I grew up. Now that was a nasty business and certainly no BS.

You are describing a world much different than the one I know, dear friend, but I'm sure there are some things we see eye-to-eye on, the Nazis being one for sure.

Best,

[machorot]

I would like to know what you (I mean those who criticize UMD) are doing for the Macedonians and Macedonia, besides criticize all the others. From what I know, all of you are completely inexistent, outside this forum! So, your opinion about UMD leaves me completely indifferent. Go on with what you are doing. Who cares!!!!!

Vodenka, your dissing of other organisations on this forum, and at the same time promoting unity, speaks volumes about your integrity and UMD's agenda.

[George S.]

vodenka you are not listening to us rtg summed it up nicely the umd was asked to respond to a couple of questions so that we could all become more informed.They flatly refused to do it.What is there to hide.At one point we were all considering the umd but sadly they let us down by not responding to questions.These were ligitimate questions That a normal man in the street would ask.Why are they so evasive??Also do they think they can buy people out or by giving the special umd awards.As time has gone the umd has strayed of course like a ship with no rudder,it has strayed of course far away from the macedonian cause.There are many issues the umd has let us down badly i have allready elaborated.

[vodenka]

With "Macedonians" like you in this forum, Macedonia does not need more enemies. You are doing a perfect job! Who is paying you, I wonder, because it is impossible you spend all your time on the internet writing against Macedonia and Macedonians for free! But I understand that you are upset about UMD in the same way as greeks are and even more, so it is not hard to guess....

[Vangelovski]

With "Macedonians" like you in this forum, Macedonia does not need more enemies. You are doing a perfect job! Who is paying you, I wonder, because it is impossible you spend all your time on the internet writing against Macedonia and Macedonians for free! But I understand that you are upset about UMD in the same way as greeks are and even more, so it is not hard to guess....

Vodenka, what exactly are Greeks mean't be be upset with UMD about? UMD's support for the Interim Accord? UMD using the ventilator? UMD promoting Macedonian membership of NATO as FYROM?

[Angliski]

Hi Risto The Great. Thank you for your post.

*

Regarding the language question in Greece, I suspect you’re referring to the “Katharevousa” (“pure”) form of the language which was a totally artificial construct conceived in an attempt to rid the language of Turkish words, of which there was an abundance, and to bring it closer to ancient Greek constructions. As you know, the total effort was a failure, inevitably, and demotic Greek carried the day. Yes, I agree, it takes quite “a while” for a nation to settle its issues. In fact, the construction of a national identity is something that is constantly in transition* and permanently on-going as long as the nation exists.

*

Regarding national “injustices,” they are an inevitable part of tribal and national relationships, especially in the Balkans with their conflicting tribes, narrow spaces, external interference, political, geographic and economic isolation and weaknesses and, of course, shifting borders. Every Balkan state (pick any one) has both sinned and been sinned against. If I may quote my favourite writer (me), “no one is completely innocent and no one is completely guilty.”

*

I am not an advocate for the Greeks. They can speak for themselves (with lesser or greater competence).

*

It is always difficult (and sometimes impossible) to see things from the point of view of “the other.” The Greek Cypriots, for example, find it difficult to interpret events in that area from the Turkish perspective, but there is a Turkish perspective. It takes courage and wisdom to see things from the other’s point of view, even briefly as an exercise. And courage and wisdom are always in short supply. Hatred, on the other hand, is an eternal spring that nourishes humanity without ever drying up. Pity.

*

Best,

[machorot]

Hi Risto The Great. Thank you for your post.

*

Regarding the language question in Greece, I suspect you’re referring to the “Katharevousa” (“pure”) form of the language which was a totally artificial construct conceived in an attempt to rid the language of Turkish words, of which there was an abundance, and to bring it closer to ancient Greek constructions. As you know, the total effort was a failure, inevitably, and demotic Greek carried the day. Yes, I agree, it takes quite “a while” for a nation to settle its issues. In fact, the construction of a national identity is something that is constantly in transition* and permanently on-going as long as the nation exists.

*

Regarding national “injustices,” they are an inevitable part of tribal and national relationships, especially in the Balkans with their conflicting tribes, narrow spaces, external interference, political, geographic and economic isolation and weaknesses and, of course, shifting borders. Every Balkan state (pick any one) has both sinned and been sinned against. If I may quote my favourite writer (me), “no one is completely innocent and no one is completely guilty.”

*

I am not an advocate for the Greeks. They can speak for themselves (with lesser or greater competence).

*

It is always difficult (and sometimes impossible) to see things from the point of view of “the other.” The Greek Cypriots, for example, find it difficult to interpret events in that area from the Turkish perspective, but there is a Turkish perspective. It takes courage and wisdom to see things from the other’s point of view, even briefly as an exercise. And courage and wisdom are always in short supply. Hatred, on the other hand, is an eternal spring that nourishes humanity without ever drying up. Pity.

*

Best,

Yes, nations such as Greece are always in transition, first their were no Macedonians, or Macedonia did not exist, now there are 2 million Greek Macedonians, created out of thin air.

BUT, i can safely say that the world has viewed Greece's latest transition as big FAT lie, re their fiscal position. Who knows how many lies propagated from Greek state, especially in the last 100 years.

Which is worse - punishing the innocent(Macedonians), or letting the guilty(Greeks) go?

[Angliski]

Vangelovski writes:

" Angliski,Like a true journalist, you are ill-informed, irrelevant and highly presumptious.Answer my question or look for the exit."

Sorry, Vangelovski, I totally missed your question. Please repeat it, and I wil be glad to answer. I'm flattered that anyone should ask me anything.

As for " the exit"' I know from past experience that Macedonian diaspora sites have no patience for contrary opinions no matter how rationally, objectively and eloquently they are expressed. It's only a matter of time, So enjoy, or detest, my posts while you can.

From my part, I've enjoyed myself and learned a few things and thank you all for your comments and attention.

I'll leave any time you want to show me the door.

Best again,

[Phoenix]

Regarding national “injustices,” they are an inevitable part of tribal and national relationships, especially in the Balkans with their conflicting tribes, narrow spaces, external interference, political, geographic and economic isolation and weaknesses and, of course, shifting borders. Every Balkan state (pick any one) has both sinned and been sinned against. If I may quote my favourite writer (me), “no one is completely innocent and no one is completely guilty.”

Angliski, you sound like a real colonial prick...with all of those "tribal relationships" in the Balkans, I can know understand why you believe all those 'black bastards' should just "forget" about the "injustices" and just get on with it, stiff upper lip and all...

...and the generalisations you've just made about the Balkans can apply to any region of the continent where various European "tribes" have spent many centuries trying to kill each other using far more barbaric means...

I would argue that the Cold War period elevated the Yugoslav Federation to a level that could not be considered one of political or economic isolation, nor was geography ever an issue...The splintering of the Federations in the later years of the 20th century has created relatively weaker nations by comparison. but this once again isn't unique to the nations of the Balkans.

As for the "narrow spaces" point...WTF?

[Phoenix]

As for " the exit"' I know from past experience that Macedonian diaspora sites have no patience for contrary opinions no matter how rationally, objectively and eloquently they are expressed. It's only a matter of time, So enjoy, or detest, my posts while you can.

Angliski, with each of your passing posts, the more I feel that you're not being very honest with us here.

I'm yet to understand what your fascination with Macedonia is.

I get the feeling that you couldn't really give a fuck at all about the Macedonian point of view, no matter how rational, objective or eloquently it's expressed...

[Angliski]

I absolutely agree, Phoenix, and that is exactly what I meant. The Balkan situation reflects that anywhere in the world, Europe or Asia or elsewhere, where national or tribal interests have collided ( and that's everywhere). The Balkans, like other places, have their own historical characteristics and idiosyncrasies.

Some commentators have made the mistake that my general comments regarding nationalism and ethnicity were directed specifically at Macedonians. I took pains to explain that they refer to the human condition, applicable to everyone and excluding no one.

Nowhere did I say I "care" about the Macedonian position or the Greek one or any other one. I said I was " interested," which indeed I am.

It is all part of the broader field that was my life's work and continues to be my preoccupation. Thank God because it keeps me from taking up golf or an interest in cricket ( colonialist as that might sound).

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski writes:

" Angliski,Like a true journalist, you are ill-informed, irrelevant and highly presumptious.Answer my question or look for the exit."

Sorry, Vangelovski, I totally missed your question. Please repeat it, and I wil be glad to answer. I'm flattered that anyone should ask me anything.

As for " the exit"' I know from past experience that Macedonian diaspora sites have no patience for contrary opinions no matter how rationally, objectively and eloquently they are expressed. It's only a matter of time, So enjoy, or detest, my posts while you can.

From my part, I've enjoyed myself and learned a few things and thank you all for your comments and attention.

I'll leave any time you want to show me the door.

Best again,

Angliski, you haven't expressed anything yet. You know exactly what my question was and if you don't, you can read back through the thread. This will be your final opportunity.

And no one here believes you are a journalist for a second - at least not a credible one that needs to hide their identity.

I can only assume that you are referring to the name dispute and are calling on Macedonians to "forget" their fundamental human rights and national sovereignty. If this is the case, as I think it may be, then your views are perverted and wretchedly xenophobic, and not even close to being "objective" and/or "eloquent".