Isocrates - Letter to Phillip II of Macedon (4th Century BC)

[Soldier of Macedon]

History is also ful of Hellenes vs Athenians battles......Hellenes vs Spartans.....and Hellenes vs Thebans.....

Sparta, Athens and Thebes were the traditional 'powers' of the ancient Hellenic world. When they are differentiated from 'the' Hellenes it is to distinguish them from the other warring party consisting of the remaining collective (or majority) in Hellas. Such references are not suggestive of a departure from the commonalities which define a 'people', 'nation', or whatever you wish to label the ancient Hellenes. The Macedonians, on the other hand, present a completely different case. Their intrusion was unexpected, overwhelming, and foreign. Isocrates does not considered them to be people of a kindred race, and the Hellenic affiliation of their kings is a weak myth enflated for propaganda purposes; it did absolutely nothing to curb Phillip's lethal designs for the homeland of his apparent mythical 'ancestry'.

Isocrates would also have prefered to die a thousand times than seeing the humiliation his defeated ancestors suffered 80 years ago at the hands of the victorious Peloponnesians who demolished the Athenian walls under the music of flutes and claiming "this day was the begining of Greek freedom"

That analogy is an irrelevant oxymoron. Isocrates was a contemporary of Phillip and not Pericles or Archidamus, and he had a vested interest in (and fear of) Macedonian ambitions towards Hellas and the battle of Chaeronea, while there was no such connection to a (Peloponnesian) war that took place well before his time.

What did really the Macedonian kings represented?Polybius described it perfectly in his Histories,and he was certainly not naive

Actions speak louder than words. Polybius is a good writer but an absolute rarity where it concerns the false notion that Macedonians risked their lives to keep the Hellenes safe. The mere suggestion is comical. Can you show me the examples of where the Macedonians ceaselessly and throughout nearly their whole lives fought for Hellas against Illyrian and/or Thracian invasions? The Macedonian people were the greatest enemy and threat to the Hellenes, and, as put by Justinus, are chiefly responsible for putting an end to the glorious sovereignty and ancient liberty of all Greece. Those are the facts, and they can't be refuted by theories that don't hold water, just for the sake of convenience.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Does anyone know if any Greek writing was found in the tomb thats supposedly that of Phillip 2?

Does anyone know if anything writen in any other language besides Greek (and some times Latin,afetr the Roman conquest) was ever found in Macedonian graves in all three Macedonian territories (Vardar,Aegean and Pirin) ?

[Agamoi Thytai]

Theres been certain people shall we say outspoken in the archaelogical world from greece who have been suddenly assasinated in the night.They spoke out in that the finds were too fantastic to be greek & they could not be possibly be greek

Names,addresses and dates,please,otherwise your scenario is pure science fiction.

Do people know that the greeks do not let outsiders to study artifacts unless it's approved by them.They only want you to see what they want themselves for youto see.

Do you know how many foreign archeological missions have operated in Greece from 19th century till today?Do you really believe the Greek state was so powerful or influential to censor all of them?

[Bill77]

Does anyone know if any Greek writing was found in the tomb thats supposedly that of Phillip 2?

Does anyone know if anything writen in any other language besides Greek (and some times Latin,afetr the Roman conquest) was ever found in Macedonian graves in all three Macedonian territories (Vardar,Aegean and Pirin) ?

So your answer would be NO then?

Why the sulking? It was a legitimate question the man wanted to know.

And what's this "Greek" you talk about? it never existed prior to 1835. We have been over this so many times before its getting boring.

To answer your question regarding anything found written in any other language???? oh shit yeh. The problem is in greece when something is discovered with Macedonian writing, it gets taken away and never seen again or altered, such as tomb stones, inscriptions on old church's etc.

[George S.]

how much destroying has gone on & how much bribery money to change things the way they want them changed.The destruction of toponyms & place names,tombstones,descration of graves,banning of people who are not greek.The forging of macedonian writing to greek writing.The bribing of greek journalists.If anything if ancient macedonian writing was found that would have been destroyed & substituted greek for that.
I'm 110%% sure the greeks would doctor material to show that it was all greek.

[George S.]

Do people know how macedonia was aquired by use of military force agains't the macedonian population.If greece didn't acquire macedonia there would be hardly any place called greece.Athens at the time apparently was a swamp & apart from the islands there was nothing.So of course there would be propaganda to be manufactured to counter the macedonians followed by forced assimilation & relocation of the populace & replacement with pontiacs.

[Bill77]

Do you know how many foreign archeological missions have operated in Greece from 19th century till today?Do you really believe the Greek state was so powerful or influential to censor all of them?

"Apart from recovering material proof of the Hellenicity of an area, archaeologists were also often called upon to cleanse and purify a recently conquered area from any linguistic and material traces of ‘barbarity’. For example, following the conquest of parts of Macedonia and Epirus during the Balkan Wars, the council of the Athens Archaeological Society formed a committee with the participation of archaeologists
from the State Archaeological Service, to ‘cleanse the country from the barbarous names’, to find out the ancient Greek names for the specific places and to Hellenize Turkish, Slavic, and Albanian names
in the cases where ancient Greek ones could not be found (Anon.1914: 73)."
"The Nation And Its Ruins"
by Greek archaeologist Yannis Hamilakis.

[Agamoi Thytai]

Sparta, Athens and Thebes were the traditional 'powers' of the ancient Hellenic world. When they are differentiated from 'the' Hellenes it is to distinguish them from the other warring party consisting of the remaining collective (or majority) in Hellas. Such references are not suggestive of a departure from the commonalities which define a 'people', 'nation', or whatever you wish to label the ancient Hellenes.

Why is it impossible to apply the same on the Macedonians?Because Demosthenes,the paid Persian agent labeled Philip as "barbarian"?

Isocrates does not considered them to be people of a kindred race, and the Hellenic affiliation of their kings is a weak myth enflated for propaganda purposes;

Being "Not of kindred race" was a usual label that frequently ancient Greeks applied to other fellow Greeks.The actual Greek term used by Isocrates,"ουχ' ομοφύλου γένους" or his equivalent "αλλοφύλου γένους" is used in many ancient Greek texts to describe the tribal differences among Athenians,Spartans,Thebans e.t.c.Pericles refers to the allied Peloponnesian opponents of Athens as "ουχ' ομόφυλοι",i.e."being of several races":

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0247%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D141

In another passage of Thucydides,Spartans consider the Athenians as "αλλόφυλους",i.e. "of allien extraction":

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0200%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D102%3Asection%3D3

While Ermocrates of Syracuses claimed the war against Athenians was a war against "αλόφυλλους",i.e. foreigners:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0247%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D64

it did absolutely nothing to curb Phillip's lethal designs for the homeland of his apparent mythical 'ancestry'.

Philip's Argead origin may have been mythical,but nevertheless it was never challenged by anyone in ancient time,and this speaks volumes.

That analogy is an irrelevant oxymoron. Isocrates was a contemporary of Phillip and not Pericles or Archidamus, and he had a vested interest in (and fear of) Macedonian ambitions towards Hellas and the battle of Chaeronea, while there was no such connection to a (Peloponnesian) war that took place well before his time.

Most of you Macedonians don't know who really Isocrates was and what he actually represented.I've seen many of you quoting his famous passage but no one has understand what he really meant:

"And SO FAR HAS OUR CITY DISTANCED THE REST OF MANKIND in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers1 of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that THE TITLE HELLENES IS RATHER APPLIED TO THOSE WHO SHARE OUR CULTURE than to those who share a common blood

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0144%3Aspeech%3D4%3Asection%3D50

The phrase "our culture" in this specific context where Isocrates praises the cultural achievements of his native city can only refer to Athenian culture in particular and not any "Greek culture" in general.In other words,Isocrates considers as real Greeks only those that had received Athenian education.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZCA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=isocrates++not+extending+term+hellene+non-greeks&hl=el&ei=nBAhTfTeH8et8QO34Im5BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=isocrates%20%20not%20extending%20term%20hellene%20non-greeks&f=false

So Isocrates was first and foremost an Athenian chauvinist and you may have a point here:He was trying to turn Philip's attention towards Persia instead of Athens.

Actions speak louder than words. Polybius is a good writer but an absolute rarity where it concerns the false notion that Macedonians risked their lives to keep the Hellenes safe. The mere suggestion is comical. Can you show me the examples of where the Macedonians ceaselessly and throughout nearly their whole lives fought for Hellas against Illyrian and/or Thracian invasions? The Macedonian people were the greatest enemy and threat to the Hellenes, and, as put by Justinus, are chiefly responsible for putting an end to the glorious sovereignty and ancient liberty of all Greece. Those are the facts, and they can't be refuted by theories that don't hold water, just for the sake of convenience.

.
Macedonians before Alexander's time were almost constantly engaged in wars against Illyrians and Thracian tribes and in the same passage of Polybius there is mentioned their war against the invading Gauls.Even a Roman,Appian aknowledged that Macedonia was the shield of Greece:

"You forget also that there are many barbarous tribes on the border of Macedonia, who would make easy incursions into Greece if the Macedonian kings were taken away. Wherefore, I think that the Macedonian government should be left to protect you against the barbarians"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0230%3Atext%3DMac.%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3Dpos%3D363

Not that he was the only Roman who held a similar view.Pliny the elder wrote:
"Such, at all events,were the opinions generally entertained in the reign of Alexander the Great, at a time when Greece was at the height of her glory, and the most powerful country in the world".

http://books.google.com/books?id=IUoMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA25

[Makedonetz]

"In the Panegyricus he [Isocrates] had urged an understanding between Sparta and Athens, so that the Greeks might unite in a common expedition against the Persian empire. Nothing of that sort was any longer thinkable. But the policy of which he now had such high hopes offered a surprisingly simple solution for the distressing problem that lay heavily on all minds the problem of what was to be the ultimate relationship between Greece and the new power in the north (Macedonia)." [p.152] WERNER JAEGER Demosthenes

"Isocrates never for an instant thought of a politically unified state under Philip's leadership. It is simply the internal unification of Hellas which he calls on Philip to bring about." [p.37] [Macedonia specifically excluded from Greece] Wilken

"Quite apart, however, from any theoretical doubts whether the nationalistic movement of modern times, which seeks to combine in a single state all the individuals of a single folk, can properly be compared with the Greek idea of Panhellenism, scholars have failed to notice that after the unfortunate Peace of Philocrates Demosthenes' whole policy was an unparalleled fight for national unification. In this period he deliberately threw off the constrains of the politician concerned exclusively with Athenian interests, and devoted himself to a task more lofty than any Greek statesman before him had ever projected or indeed could have projected. In this respect he is quite comparable to Isocrates; but an important point of contrast still remains. The difference is simply that Demosthenes did not think of this "unification" as a more or less voluntary submission to the will of the conqueror; on the contrary, he demanded a unanimous uprising of all the Greeks against the Macedonian foe." [p.172] WERNER JAEGER

[George S.]

makedonetz the greeks hated being subjugated by the macedonians & never recovered till centuries later.The macedonians were foreign conquerors whom the greeks despised to the point of death.The modern greeks like to dismiss all that but that's the truth.

[Louis Riel]

Does anyone know if anything writen in any other language besides Greek (and some times Latin,afetr the Roman conquest) was ever found in Macedonian graves in all three Macedonian territories (Vardar,Aegean and Pirin) ?

So like Bill said....the answer is "no",right?

To answer your question...you will find hundreds of thousands of graves in Macedonia that have cyrillic writing on them...not Greek or Latin.

[George S.]

Yes louis there were cyrillic writings but on the greek side why did the greeks try to destroy them & change them to greek ones only.Well i'll tell you to spread the myth that macedonians were greek & even in death its greek writing.The greeks don't want you to know that they have been ripping graveyrds for years being recent or even ancient ones & changing their names to greek ones.Greeks can run but they can't hide.A lot of their myths have been busted.

[Makedonetz]

George S Greece is living in a world of lies since the 1st day the implant of falcification was planted into their brains. Their own history is scrowded in a black cloud so they go and steal other peoples historys who they have no fucking idea what we really are.

Greece should have a stamp called "Made in germany, Hellarse forgery"

[Soldier of Macedon]

Why is it impossible to apply the same on the Macedonians?Because Demosthenes,the paid Persian agent labeled Philip as "barbarian"?

Demosthenes may have been affiliated with the Persians in one way or another, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the Hellenes were. It was his voice, and not that of Isocrates, that was heard, condoned and followed by the Hellenes. Even after his death this so-called Persian agent was praised by the Hellenes, who wrote at the base of his statue that: Had you for Hellas been strong, as wise you were, The Macedonian had not conquered her. Demosthenes may be disliked by modern Greeks like you, but to the people who actually mattered, the ancient Hellenes, he was largely a popular figure. As Plutarch states: all Greece seemed to have recovered her confidence and was up in arms to support Demosthenes for the future.

Being "Not of kindred race" was a usual label that frequently ancient Greeks applied to other fellow Greeks.The actual Greek term used by Isocrates,"ουχ' ομοφύλου γένους" or his equivalent "αλλοφύλου γένους" is used in many ancient Greek texts to describe the tribal differences among Athenians,Spartans,Thebans e.t.c.

Isocrates makes a clear distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes, don't embarrass yourself by trying to claim otherwise. Hellenes did not "frequently" refer to other Hellenes as 'foreigners' either, all you're doing is cherry picking a few quotes, as there is nothing you can produce to compare with the several citations relating to the Macedonians as a distinct people and foreigners by both Hellenes and Romans.

Philip's Argead origin may have been mythical,but nevertheless it was never challenged by anyone in ancient time,and this speaks volumes.

It was challenged during the time of Alexander, Archelaus and Phillip, directly and indirectly. It was a myth. Scythians did it, so did the Romans and others. Hardly any of the claims were challenged, not literally anyway.

Most of you Macedonians don't know who really Isocrates was and what he actually represented.I've seen many of you quoting his famous passage but no one has understand what he really meant

Spare me, your interpretation is narrow and tailor made to fit your story. If Isocrates meant Athenians and not Hellenes, then he would not have mentioned the latter. He words are clear enough - the name of 'Hellene' extends beyond the Hellenic people and can also refer to those with a classical education, which excludes any ethnic connotation. An African could be as Hellenic as Phillip and Alexander minus the obvious genetical particulars.

So Isocrates was first and foremost an Athenian chauvinist and you may have a point here:He was trying to turn Philip's attention towards Persia instead of Athens.

.
Instead of Greece. Phillip and his Macedonians had designs on the whole of Greece and not just Athens, stop trying to contain what is in fact a larger picture.

Macedonians before Alexander's time were almost constantly engaged in wars against Illyrians and Thracian tribes and in the same passage of Polybius there is mentioned their war against the invading Gauls.Even a Roman,Appian aknowledged that Macedonia was the shield of Greece:

Macedonians protected Macedonia, not Greece, which found itself to be luckily located to the south.

Not that he was the only Roman who held a similar view.Pliny the elder wrote:
"Such, at all events,were the opinions generally entertained in the reign of Alexander the Great, at a time when Greece was at the height of her glory, and the most powerful country in the world".

Pliny is obviously incorrect in this instance and his statement is easily refuted by other sources. Alexander was the king of Macedonia. Greece wasn't a country per se, nor was it a part of Macedonia (although controlled by the Macedonians), it was a league of states, and the environment which is labelled 'glorious' was no longer in existence after the Macedonian conquest of Greece.

[Louis Riel]

Yes louis there were cyrillic writings but on the greek side why did the greeks try to destroy them & change them to greek ones only.Well i'll tell you to spread the myth that macedonians were greek & even in death its greek writing.The greeks don't want you to know that they have been ripping graveyrds for years being recent or even ancient ones & changing their names to greek ones.Greeks can run but they can't hide.A lot of their myths have been busted.

Even the dead arent spared hey?Whoever does those types of things is seriously fucked in the head....thats all i can say about that.