The savior no one is talking about

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    #16
    Its not minor. For 200 years we have been trying to teach Macedonians to stand up for themselves. What exactly is the Russian option, what has Russia offered to Macedonia other than vague "support". None of this bullshit is about Macedonia, its about Russia trying to increase its sphere of influence and support.

    All of Macedonia's problems are internal and we don't need anyone's "help". Russia won't help with corruption, with lack of integrity and morality, with peoples disregards for law and order. Macedonia's only problem ever has been the mentality of its people and this type of idiocy only further reinforces that mentality.

    The savior of Macedonia is not a man, or a foreign power, it is the people. It is when the people wake up and decide to care and to demand that their country function like a normal country.

    Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
    Now leave this minor thing and see what this party wants to do for Macedonia instead.

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #17
      Yes because Syria is what we Macedonia to look like? Russia didn't come to Syria's aid so much as that Russia had financial and strategic interests there and could not allow a pro western government to take over. Syria is and has been run by a brutal dictatorship Russia is helping prop up that dictatorship because of its own interests, not because of those of Syria or its people. I don't consider this a win for the Syrian people.

      Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
      Are you talking about neutrality in the year 2018? If you follow global politics you should very well know that such a thing is impossible for a small country like us.
      If Syria didn't call for Russian help in the last moment it also would have shared the fate of Libya.
      You think Russia gives a damn about our history or our identity? They would turn us into a hole in the ground if it was in their interests. No one is pushing Albanians out of anywhere. What you are suggesting is basically throwing Macedonia into the middle of a proxy war, where everyone else has something to gain, and Macedonia loses on all accounts. The rest is just pandering my friend.

      Russian and Macedonian interests are one and the same. Pushing the CIA and CIA-funded terrorists (albanians) out of the balkan countries that are not NATO members. Russia doesn't want us to change our identity and give up our history. Putin infront of president Ivanov publicly said that the Russian alphabet, culture and christianity come from Macedonia.
      I don't consider Russia the right side by any standard. I put that to the equivalent of people who thought the Nazis were the right side. Russia and its "allies" are solely the pariah states of the world, mostly run by dictators, as is Russia. That is hardly the side I want to be on, and even if we were talking about a pragmatic choice instead of a principled one, then the Russian "side" is a joke and is certainly the losing side. Russia and its band of misfits, have 0 power on the world stage. Russia's ability is limited to being an agitator and occasionally throwing itself into the middle of something and saying "we have nukes back off". Its economy is shit, its military is no where near large enough to compete directly with the west. I see no advantage or benefit to backing Russia. Besides That is a doomsday scenario which we are not even talking about. We don't need Russia to tell Greece to fuck off. Or to go about our internal business.

      Now is our chance to pick the right side in the coming global conflict and be allies with those who respect us as a dignified nation. Being neutral will only lead to our destruction.. you have to be wiser than that. Being neutral means that you are a ''contested territory'' and this leads to destabilization and conflicts. Such is the reality of the present day and age. We can't fight CIA/NATO alone. Russian influence must come in the free balkan countries. It is our only guarantee against CIA NATO and their ''Great Albania'' project.
      Now who is naive. There is no such thing as respect in world politics. Thing don't get decided on the basis of respect. Every country is responsible for its own interests. Everyone looks after their own interests period. The west doesn't want to wipe us off the map. This who debacle is our own fault. We told the world we wanted to negotiate, we told everyone that Greece had a legitimate position. This is all totally self imposed, and Macedonians need to stop blaming everyone for their own stupidity. If Macedonia wasn't a corrupt shit hole, people wouldn't be so desperate to accept this garbage. Zaev is bending over backwards without anyone asking him to. His followers follow him by choice, not by force. This is exactly Russia's strategy around the world. To make people believe that the secret evil societies of the west are to blame for everything that is wrong in the world, buy Russia can save you. Everything bad that has happened in Macedonia for the last 100 years is OUR fault. Every country in the world deals with outside pressure and interests, its up the people to be smart enough to know what THEIR interests are.

      I completely understand your point. I would never want Macedonia to be someone's puppet. But our future depends on which side we pick now. As I mentioned before, one side respects us as equals while the other wants to wipe us off from the world map.
      Its a sham, and Russia has very little to offer, as does the EU for that matter. I can't think of a single good thing Russia has done on the world stage ever. Even during WW2 Russia was happy to be neutral and let Hitler take over Europe so long as they left Russia alone.

      Maybe Bachev is genuine and he is just trying to play a political game to get attention, or maybe he is a Pro Russia stooge. I'm not convinced one way or the other yet.

      Bachev has said multiple times that we don't need the Russians to fix our problems for us, but that we need to be part of those geopolitical changes in order for us to fix our problems ourselves!

      Comment

      • Gocka
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2012
        • 2306

        #18
        I don't have anything personally against Russia, they have their interests, they are free to run their country and their politics the way they wish. This is exactly about what is best for Macedonia. I am not convinced that Russia is the smart choice for Macedonia. They are more likely to help us to our downfall than help us rise.

        Also we don't need to "annihilate" Albanians. All we need to do is have a functioning democracy and treat them with a basic level of respect that a minority deserves, nothing more nothing less. They should have whatever representation is proportion to their numbers like in every normal democracy. As the majority it is our country and that's that. Now if the Albanians can't accept that, and resort to violent means like they have before, I am certain if we as Macedonians want to stand up to them, that we can. I don't think we need anyone's help to do that.

        For 30 years we keep looking to others, to give us the go ahead, support us, encourage us. We need to start running our own country through our own means, otherwise nothing is sustainable. If we are not willing to fight for our own country, no one is going to do it for us.

        I want leaders like Bachev, to come out and encourage the people. Tell people that our destiny is in our hands. Convince people to get involved to be brave. Not to look to someone else to hold our hand. Our vojvodi kept a front against 4 armies, all with meager means and few numbers. We can handle the shiptari on our own. We can handle Zaev on our own. We are the ones who allow and make possible the corruption and theft.

        I want a leader who will make Macedonians free and independent, not in hypothetical geopolitical alliances, but in thought. Macedonians need to be freed from their own chains, that is a real leader in my book.

        Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
        Ofcorse every country looks after their own interests, that's why we should side with Russia... because of our own interest.
        I've never been pro-russian in my life and I'm never going to be! But I believe that Macedonia could benefit the most from that alliance. We could annihilate the albanians without the west saying a word. Because from 2018 onward every attack on Russian strategic allies is an attack on Russia itself. Understand the benefits now?

        And this thread has gone from the pro-Macedonian politics of Edinstvena Makedonija to Russia this Russia that. If you have some personal issues with Russia then fine. Because I couldn't care less about Russia if they serve our interests.

        Comment

        • Liberator of Makedonija
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 1595

          #19
          All this talk about Russia protecting us and our interests. Will just remind everyone that Macedonians once said those exact same things about Bulgaria.
          I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

          Comment

          • Liberator of Makedonija
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 1595

            #20
            Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
            Russia is protecting its own interests... which happen to be of great benefit to us.

            If you have a better idea how to protect ourselves from the American aggression then please enlighten us. I'm all ears.
            Just pointing it out, currently our interests allign but what about when they don't? In the past Russia's interests were in Bulgaria and we were the victims of that.
            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

            Comment

            • Big Bad Sven
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 1528

              #21
              I respect russians a lot actually like them a lot (including their quirky and strange behaviours)

              But i think its typicical balkan slave minded borderline autistic behaviour to wave foreign flags. The albanians look like jokes waving american flags and i have noticed the serbs look desperate and weak waving the russian flags lately in protests and soccer matches. Macedonians doing that know also look weak and desperate.

              Maybe its hard for a small country ike macedonia to do this, but i think the best strategy is to follow countries like Greece and Hungary. They are playing the russians, EU, USA and even China against each other - and gain a lot of benefits and independance from this.

              Also in regards to this person and his party this topic is about - i like them/him (excluding the far too pro russian part).
              VMRO and SDSM are two sides of the rotten globalist anti macedonain coin, Its time for something new.

              Comment

              • Pelagonija
                Member
                • Mar 2017
                • 533

                #22
                America/NATO are our natural enemies. They armed and funded Albanians in the Balkans, Isis in the middles east, they support Saudi in Yemen and in general, Lybian rebels, they have been in Afghanistan for 17 years. They spend trillions on wars when America is decaying and killed millions of kids. Just what kind of normal human being can ignore these facts? People are still dying of cancer in Vietnam today from agent orange. Palestine? Come on..

                The Germans invaded us twice, the English and US supported the Greeks whilst they used napalm on our people. English and French supported the ottomans.. just when is enough is enough. These people hate us..

                Look at the brave Syrians, half a million dead, the US sent their jihad proxies from all over the world.. included some from my suburb.. Fortunately Syrians chose Russia.. that is the moderate Syrians as against the fanatics supported by the USA.

                Long live Orthodox Russia.

                Comment

                • Pelagonija
                  Member
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 533

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                  Why would anyone who is not Russian, be pro Russian? That is exactly the slavish mentality that brought Macedonia to this point.

                  We hate when Albanians wave around American and Albanian flags, why? Because they are foreign, because they have nothing to do with Macedonia.

                  So why would any Macedonian want Russians flags or any other foreign flags being waved around. Why would any Macedonian be pro anything other than pro Macedonian?

                  Goce Delcev warned about looking to foreign powers to "save" Macedonia over a 100 years ago, and here we are with the same stupid slavish mentality.

                  Any Macedonian who says " I’m pro Russian and love the Russian flag" , is just as misguided as any Bugaromani, Grkomani or the like.
                  Good point, I just feel that I can identify more with the values and current geo strategy of Russia. I used to have these warm fuzzy feelings for Mkd, but I just can’t identify with the current lot, I just don’t recognise them.. I just don’t know who these people are anymore.. no values, no morals and no pride.

                  Comment

                  • Phoenix
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 4671

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
                    America/NATO are our natural enemies. They armed and funded Albanians in the Balkans, Isis in the middles east, they support Saudi in Yemen and in general, Lybian rebels, they have been in Afghanistan for 17 years. They spend trillions on wars when America is decaying and killed millions of kids. Just what kind of normal human being can ignore these facts? People are still dying of cancer in Vietnam today from agent orange. Palestine? Come on..

                    The Germans invaded us twice, the English and US supported the Greeks whilst they used napalm on our people. English and French supported the ottomans.. just when is enough is enough. These people hate us..

                    Look at the brave Syrians, half a million dead, the US sent their jihad proxies from all over the world.. included some from my suburb.. Fortunately Syrians chose Russia.. that is the moderate Syrians as against the fanatics supported by the USA.

                    Long live Orthodox Russia.
                    ...and that's just a small scratch on the surface.

                    Comment

                    • maco2envy
                      Member
                      • Jan 2015
                      • 288

                      #25
                      Don't forget that Russia has turbulent relations with our main oppressors, Bulgaria and more recently Greece.

                      Also Putin, being one of the most powerful figures on earth alongside the leader of the largest orthodox state which also uses cyrillic stating that Macedonians carry the legacy of the cyrillic alphabet is a HUGE thing. When someone like Putin says such a thing, it obliterates all the bullshit that our degenerate neighbors say about us. I know Putin has his own agenda, but that type of recognition is important for the Macedonian nation.

                      Comment

                      • Gocka
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2012
                        • 2306

                        #26
                        Do you know what the word annihilate means? It is another way of saying murder. What the hell are you talking about? Is that the type of Macedonia you want to build, on the foundation of genocide? Alabamians have every right to live, even in Macedonia. All that needs to change is the laws. If there was rule of law, than Albanian thugs wouldn't get away with the things that they do. Reverse the OFA, and everything pertaining to it, and that's that. If they act out violently to those actions, then you deal with that accordingly. But to say out right lets murder them all is not only unrealistic, but psychotic. I want a free democratic Macedonia in which even Albanians have basic human rights. There is nothing wrong with that. The only reason Albanians act out the way they do, is because we never stand up to them. They act like spoiled children who never heard the word NO before.

                        Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
                        I can't believe you are saying this. Have you even been to Macedonia buddy? Albanians are protected like polar bears! No law can touch them. They stab Macedonian kids with knifes almost daily for no reason at all.. and the police doesn't take action against them because they are albanians. They attack 5 against 1 on bus stops with bats and knifes, a young lad was killed not long ago. A person I know got stabbed twice in a bus in Skopje. The law simply doesn't exist for albanians. They build illegal buildings everywhere. Road police doesn't even pull them over. They don't pay taxes. They have more rights than Macedonians what the hell are you talking about?{/quote}


                        You do realize that's bullshit. The Serbs are no angels and if we stoop to their level we deserve what ever is coming to us. Second no, we could not have won in 2001, because we are a nation of cowards. Again if our country functioned like a normal country, it would have been a simple matter. That "conflict" should have been over in about a week. NATO extracted the Albanians because they were afraid of the instability that would ensue if we LOST.

                        You do realize that waging war on Albanian separatists is waging war against AMERICA and NATO right? You think that our forces couldn't win in 2001? You think that the Serb forces couldn't win in Kosovo? Are you that delusional?

                        We are the ones who put ourselves in that idiotic position. We signed the interim accord promising that we will eventually change our name. We came up with the Prespa agreement. No one has forced these things on us. This is just stupid Russian propaganda. This is how they convince people to be on their side. The whole world order is a giant conspiracy, follow Russia.

                        [quote}No... for 30 years we are trying to get in a union that doesn't even want to mention our country's name. Your country this your country that... Skopje this Skopje that.
                        If we don't follow them blindly they threaten to partition the country. We are their hostages! Do you really think they will let us run our country the way we want? Do you know who forced the framework agreement upon us? Do you know who is slowly making Great Albania a reality? Do you know who is behind the Zaev coup?

                        America and NATO want ''Greater Albania'' ... we can't fight America and NATO alone ... simple as that.
                        You know the solution to this problem but you choose to ignore it because of pride.

                        I respect the way you think but that simply does not work. We saw what happened in 2001. We saw what happened in 2016. We see what is happening now. America and NATO are determined to go with their project til the end... Why? Because the Albanian mafia is one of the strongest in the world and they are giving them tons of $$$$$$.

                        Thank you. Finally a reasonably thinking person. This is the same stupidity Macedonia has engaged in for 200 years. I've never seen such a lot of fucking pussies in my life. Real men stand up for themselves, they fight for themselves. Only cowards grovel for daddy's help.

                        Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                        All this talk about Russia protecting us and our interests. Will just remind everyone that Macedonians once said those exact same things about Bulgaria.
                        THERE IS NO AMERICAN AGGRESSION. Its an illusion a lie that we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better about being useless cowards for the last 30 years. Pick up a history book. These are the same fucking problems the vojvodi had with the dumb population over a 100 years ago, when there was no fucking "American aggression". Back then they blamed god, and the Turks for their misfortunes.

                        From day 1, we have dug our own hole, and then when we can't climb out of it, America is at fault, or Soros, or fucking big foot. We keep making international agreements, then break them. The west has been completely supportive of every idiotic idea we have come up with since independence. It's not their fault that we are a bunch of useless idiots and don't know how to handle our own interests. Its a tiny speck of land with not even 2 million people, and we can't even make the simplest things FUNCTION, and you think this massive international conspiracy is needed to keep us down? Do you realize if this "conspiracy" is as you all think it is, that we wouldn't fucking exist. Do you realize how quickly they could turn our tiny speck of land into a giant hole in the ground if they wanted to? Why haven't they? Why do they just nudge us little by little? Give me a break. This is how corrupt leaders blind their stupid domestic populations. It is a tactic as old as time. Blame the boogy man, and no one looks at you while you loot the bank. Macedonians constantly use stupid conspiracy theories to convince themselves that everything they do is futile.

                        You want Macedonia to function? Simple, make decent laws, and fucking follow them, and demand that other follow them. DONE. Stop bending over backwards every time someone blinks at you. BE MEN.

                        Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
                        Russia is protecting its own interests... which happen to be of great benefit to us.

                        If you have a better idea how to protect ourselves from the American aggression then please enlighten us. I'm all ears.
                        Keep reading history, You have learned and progressed so much from your early days. All of you take note, this is what all Macedonians should be doing. So that we don't KEEP REPEATING THE SAME MISTAKES OVER AND OVER!

                        Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                        Just pointing it out, currently our interests allign but what about when they don't? In the past Russia's interests were in Bulgaria and we were the victims of that.

                        Its not hard, you just have to be brave, and not be an idiot who falls for stupid conspiracy theories. Look at the way Greece acts. Do you think larger countries don't have the means to bring them in line? The reality is that these "great" powers, aren't so great, and don't have that much power. The reason Hungary and Greece do what they do is because no one can do shit about it. In most cases all you need to do is stand up for yourself and not be intimidated. Greece learned this, why can't we?

                        I too wait every day for a decent even semi intelligent leader to present themselves in Macedonia, but still nothing. This guy Bachev says some of the right things, but I can't help but feel like he knows what Macedonian nationalists want to hear, and just says it.

                        Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                        I respect russians a lot actually like them a lot (including their quirky and strange behaviours)

                        But i think its typicical balkan slave minded borderline autistic behaviour to wave foreign flags. The albanians look like jokes waving american flags and i have noticed the serbs look desperate and weak waving the russian flags lately in protests and soccer matches. Macedonians doing that know also look weak and desperate.

                        Maybe its hard for a small country ike macedonia to do this, but i think the best strategy is to follow countries like Greece and Hungary. They are playing the russians, EU, USA and even China against each other - and gain a lot of benefits and independance from this.

                        Also in regards to this person and his party this topic is about - i like them/him (excluding the far too pro russian part).
                        VMRO and SDSM are two sides of the rotten globalist anti macedonain coin, Its time for something new.

                        Comment

                        • Niko777
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 1895

                          #27
                          Hasn't Russia on several occasions flip flop when it comes to its foreign policy towards Macedonians? The best example being in 1947 when it told Bulgaria to recognize the Macedonian minority in Pirin Macedonia and then in 1958 they told them to reverse its recognition and pretend Macedonians never existed.

                          Comment

                          • Liberator of Makedonija
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 1595

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
                            Hasn't Russia on several occasions flip flop when it comes to its foreign policy towards Macedonians? The best example being in 1947 when it told Bulgaria to recognize the Macedonian minority in Pirin Macedonia and then in 1958 they told them to reverse its recognition and pretend Macedonians never existed.
                            Exactly the point I've been making, always approach these situations with caution I say. At the moment they like us but at numerous points in the past they have screwed us over and have directly contributed to our sufferings.
                            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                            Comment

                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              #29
                              That is because Russia doesn't have real allies, because Russia itself is and has always been disingenuous. Russia doesn't have any real morals or values, it does whatever is good for Russia in the moment, and as history has shown, that is always changing. Russia doesn't have a single real genuine ally that isn't also a basket case.

                              Russia would be just as likely to fund a civil war in Macedonia than to help us with anything that is of interest to us.

                              In the end all of this is a moot point. The real point here is that Macedonians need to stop looking for a "savior" and save them god damn selves. If we even had a partial spine, none of this would be happening. So lets address that before we pick sides in a hypothetical WW3.

                              Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
                              Hasn't Russia on several occasions flip flop when it comes to its foreign policy towards Macedonians? The best example being in 1947 when it told Bulgaria to recognize the Macedonian minority in Pirin Macedonia and then in 1958 they told them to reverse its recognition and pretend Macedonians never existed.
                              Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                              Exactly the point I've been making, always approach these situations with caution I say. At the moment they like us but at numerous points in the past they have screwed us over and have directly contributed to our sufferings.

                              Comment

                              • Pelagonija
                                Member
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 533

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                                That is because Russia doesn't have real allies, because Russia itself is and has always been disingenuous. Russia doesn't have any real morals or values, it does whatever is good for Russia in the moment, and as history has shown, that is always changing. Russia doesn't have a single real genuine ally that isn't also a basket case.

                                Russia would be just as likely to fund a civil war in Macedonia than to help us with anything that is of interest to us.

                                In the end all of this is a moot point. The real point here is that Macedonians need to stop looking for a "savior" and save them god damn selves. If we even had a partial spine, none of this would be happening. So lets address that before we pick sides in a hypothetical WW3.
                                I would say Russia has more morals than the US and Western Europe. Just a few examples:

                                - They are rebuilding the church on a grand scale after years of communist madness.
                                - Encouraging families not gay propaganda and moral decline.
                                - Supported the moral side in the Syrian war.
                                - Making a genuine attempt at forging an independent pro Russian foreign policy to further strengthen its own country.

                                Just look how the current Russians support v-day, with the young comming out in millions on the streets with pictures from of their great/grand grand fathers.. just where else do the war dead get such respect?

                                Russia is heading in the right direction in regards to competing with the rest of the world economically. Of course America will try and stunt its growth aka competition with:

                                -Proxy wars
                                -Sanctions
                                -Condom revolutions
                                -False flags
                                -Media propaganda
                                -Gay human rights propaganda
                                -Misinformation

                                Google Jimmy Dore on YouTube, you will see the truth about the USA.

                                The choice is obvious. Whilst Russia may be a basket case in comparison to some economies, it is punching above its weight and definitely a better partner strategically than the USA or Western Europe. Look at Turkey
                                Last edited by Pelagonija; 08-15-2018, 05:06 AM.

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