Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    I felt that way at one point a long time ago. Then I realized that I'm not North Macedonian, or a former Yugoslav so I can't even say they are my people. If they can make the decision for the whole world to refer to me as North Macedonian, faggot is more than polite, actually too polite. Gay people contribute many wonderful things to society and actually fight for their identity and rights.

    Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
    I understand the anger but calling our own people names I just don’t get it.

    Comment

    • Solun
      Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 166

      It doesn't surprise me that the Sazdovski murder may have just been an ominous warning from the government as to what awaits demonstrators.

      As per the anonymous letter from a Komita:



      Убиството на Никола Саздовски и тоа како е поврзано со Договорот за името.

      После масовните протести по договорот Заев -Ципрас кои се одржаа на 17 јуни пред собранието на Република Македонија и продолжија во деновите кои следеа, а кои ги инициравме ние навивачите од навивачката група Комити, следеше притисок и прогон врз сите нас.

      Одкако не растераа со шок бомби, солзавец и гумени куршуми и одкако приведоа десетици учесници на овој протест, власта не постигна речиси ништо. Револтот наместо да го снема уште повише зајакна. Ние момците од Комити не се исплашивме и во наредните денови продолживме да го покажуваме нашето незадоволство.

      Тогаш власта реши да се справи со нив неофицијално. Имено стотина наши членови беа изложени на други методи. Дел од нив беа собирани во полициски станици и им беше претено со обвиненија, на дел им беа ветувани бенефиции ако создадат раздор или да играат по сценарио, а некои беа директно атакувани. Овој последниот метод подразбираше да бидат начекани Комити и здробени од мавање по скопските улици од групи кои имаат конекции од власта, како порака до сите нас кои покажуваат непокор, а полицијата тоа “да не го види“ или “да го води како обична тепачка или расчистување на сметки помеѓу криминалци“. Закрилата им беше гарантирана.

      Ордите под закрила на власта, кои не беа едно-етнички беа пуштени во лов на Комити, а една од една од тие “контролирани акции“ заврши трагично по животот на нашиот другар Саздо.

      Да. Ордите не беа само од една етничка група, туку за жал, беа водени позадински од удбашко подземје кое посочуваше со прст на секој од нас на кој требаше ордите да удрат. Целта беше висока, да се замолчи јавноста која беше против “историскиот договор“, и затоа сите средства беа оправдани…

      Comment

      • Niko777
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2010
        • 1895

        Russia Today made a short video "Greece Vs. Macedonia: a Name Game"

        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

        Comment

        • Niko777
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2010
          • 1895

          Russians funding the Grkomani?

          Greece: Russians expelled over cash-for-protests allegation


          Greece has moved to expel two Russian diplomats accused of supplying funds to protest groups opposing a deal that would end Greece's longstanding name dispute with neighbouring Macedonia, a Greek official said Thursday.

          The expulsions were confirmed the day after NATO formally invited Macedonia to join the western military alliance pending the agreement's successful completion. Moscow opposes any expansion of NATO, particularly if it involves nations Russia sees as within its natural sphere of influence.

          Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras told Greek reporters in Brussels after a NATO summit ended Thursday that he was obliged "to defend the national sovereignty" of Greece, but did not refer to Russia or the expulsions directly.

          "We seek good relations with most countries -- not only the ones in our neighbourhood," Tsipras said. "But we do demand that all countries respect our international legitimacy and national sovereignty."

          Russian authorities have been given until Friday to get the two diplomats out of Greece, the Greek official told The Associated Press. He asked not to be identified, citing the sensitivity of the issue.

          The government was compelled to act after receiving evidence of "specific actions," the official said. Greece also blocked other Russian officials from entering the country, he said.

          It was not clear if the Russian diplomats have departed or are preparing to leave.

          The United States welcomed the Greek action. In a message posted on Twitter, U.S. State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said: "We support Greece defending its sovereignty. Russia must end its destabilizing behaviour."

          The deal to end the name dispute foresees Macedonia renamed as North Macedonia in exchange for Greece dropping objections to its northern neighbour joining NATO and the European Union.

          A Russian diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly dismissed as "nonsense" allegations that Russian diplomats were involved in undermining Greek public support for the Macedonia deal.

          In Moscow, the Foreign Ministry took a careful stance.

          Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova warned that diplomatic expulsions typically bring a tit-for-tat response, but underlined the importance of Russia-Greece ties.

          The agreement between Greece and its small northern neighbour still faces several hurdles -- including constitutional changes and a referendum in Macedonia -- before it becomes final.

          Protests against the agreement have been held in both countries, backed by the political opposition.

          Igor Pshenichnikov, an expert at the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies, a government-funded think-tank, alleged the Greek authorities acted "under the pressure of their advisers from Brussels and Washington."

          In remarks carried by the Tass news agency, he described the move as Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras' "gift for the NATO summit."

          Russia has tried to prevent some countries from joining NATO, including historic Slavic ally Montenegro. The Balkan country became NATO's 29th member a year ago.

          Greece has moved to expel two Russian diplomats accused of supplying funds to protest groups opposing a deal that would end Greece's longstanding name dispute with neighbouring Macedonia, a Greek official said Thursday.

          Comment

          • Gocka
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 2306

            lol our "brothers" the Russians. This is what they do, frankly this is what all the larger powers do. They play both sides of the coin all the time.

            Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
            Russians funding the Grkomani?

            Greece: Russians expelled over cash-for-protests allegation

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              lol our "brothers" the Russians. This is what they do, frankly this is what all the larger powers do. They play both sides of the coin all the time.
              Knocking off the prespa agreement wouldn't be a bad thing.
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                Of course not. I just find it funny how some people put their faith in these external players who are totally unpredictable.

                I don't think the Greeks need encouragement anyway. Glavata e secham, if there isn't serious attempts to derail the agreement on the Greek side.

                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                Knocking off the prespa agreement wouldn't be a bad thing.

                Comment

                • Big Bad Sven
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 1528

                  Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                  lol our "brothers" the Russians. This is what they do, frankly this is what all the larger powers do. They play both sides of the coin all the time.
                  Russia is against macedonia changing its name not becasue it cares for macedonia but becasue it does not want macedonia in NATO, it will lose another country to american influence. It seemed like Russia was able to turn the Gruevski government pro - russian.

                  Russia is stirring the nationalists/racists in Greece to put more pressure on the Greek government to not agree to Northern Republic Macedonia. We all know the real greek goal is to eliminate the work 'macedonia' from Republic of Macedonia's name. The globalist puppet greek government is working over time to finalise the agreement for macedonia to be named NRM, but it seems like their are delays in this from the nationalist greek population and certain politicans and now President Ivanov and the upcoming reffrendum. Thankfully the russians dont want macedonia to join nato so i am sure they will invest in people to vote against the name change (notice a lot of russian flags in the anti name change protests).

                  This is the same ironic scenario happening over and over again. We have sellout politicans and a majority of the population who are so desperate to change the name for bullshit 'gains' but we are 'saved' from changing our identity from nationalist greeks (becasue they will never accept 'macedonia' in the name). We are 'lucky' to have neighbours like greece blocking the name change and stopping us from comitting suicide.

                  Btw, Russia has been doing this for a while all across Europe, funding nationalist and anti EU/NATO parties all across Europe. Even as far as Portugal and now Greece

                  Comment

                  • Karposh
                    Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 863

                    Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
                    Russia Today made a short video "Greece Vs. Macedonia: a Name Game"

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6d_AkT_5Ns
                    Despite his ignorant error of judgement with regard to the “obvious Greekness” of Ancient Macedonia, this guy's take on the whole kiss-arse politics that successive Macedonian governments have approached their foreign policy with was spot on I thought. He rightly poses the question why would the government of Macedonia sell out its people like that and change the name of the country? So that NATO and the EU can tell them that they are now “ready to talk”?...”Ah, quite the incentive – so they get to send their soldiers to NATO induced conflicts around the world”...Hang on, haven't they been doing this regardless? Just our way of showing good faith and loyalty to the west perhaps?...Hey look at us, the more you insult us, belittle us and demean us by by calling us FYRoM, not to mention forcing us to accept national suicide by granting ever more rights to Albanians, the more we want to kiss your arse. How loyal are we? It kind of reminds me of a scene from Dumb & Dumber, when Jim Carrey's idiotic character asks his love interest to put him out of his misery and tell him what his chances are with her – “A million to one” she tells him. And, without missing a beat, the excited and love struck Jimbo replies, with a big goofy smile on his face, “So, what you're saying is – THERE'S A CHANCE!!!”

                    Some home truths that were mentioned in the video:

                    “And if ther's any former Yugoslav counrty that has consistently followed western dictate following its independence it's Macedonia. They did it in hopes of avoiding war and gaining prosperity”...LOL

                    And Macedonia ended that war (2001) by giving its Albanian minority huge privileges, even allowing a guy called Talat Djaferi, a former Albanian guerilla who fought against Macedonian soldiers, to later become Macedonia's Defense Minister and Speaker of the Parliament"...Cue the scene from Star Trek where the captain does a face palm.

                    To anyone else in the world, this would be madness. No other country in the world would tolerate such treasonous behaviour by their politicians. But not so in our beloved yet spineless Macedonia it would seem.

                    Comment

                    • Pelagonija
                      Member
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 533

                      How good is that, fyromers are going to chuck a party for selling their soul.. the propaganda is scary.. they actually think they achieved something



                      A lot of good EU/NATO has done for Croatia with %43 unemployment

                      МАКЕДОНИЈАЗабрчанец: Сите изведувачи знаеја дека ќе настапат на прослава по повод поканата на НАТООбјавено пред 3 часа - 13 јули, 2018Од Mak Fax

                      Македонија и граѓаните со право, гордо и чесно ќе го прослават историскиот успех, поканата за членство во НАТО и датумот за преговори за членство во ЕУ.

                      Да, ова се историски успеси, ова се победи за демократијата во Македонија и заслужуваат прослава како никогаш до сега. Кога ако не сега?“ напиша на „Фејсбук“ Марјан Забрчанец, советник за односи со јавност во Владата.
                      Тој вели дека ова не се настани како тие на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, кога, како што додава, единствената намера била да се мобилизира партиска поддршка и да се манипулира со граѓаните.

                      Тој потенцира дека сите изведувачи имале потпишано договор со Владата на кој експлицитно стои за каков настан станува збор, односно дека тие ќе настапат на музички настан по повод поканата на НАТО за членство на земјата во алијансата.

                      Comment

                      • Pelagonija
                        Member
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 533

                        Well said..




                        2008 година: „Ќе ве примиме во НАТО кога ќе го решите спорот за името со Грците“
                        2018 година: „Ќе ве примиме во НАТО кога ќе го решите спорот за името со Македонците“
                        Вака е како што прочитавте. Никако поинаку. Зоки и Рада можат до утре да ве убедуваат во спротивното, ако ви се живее при очи слепи, верувајте им. Досега Грците имаа спор за нашето име, отсега окторираните, квислинзите, платените, хистеричните, обезумените ќе имаат проблем за нашето име. До вчера ние Македонците им пречевме на Грците, од денес им пречиме и на Северноцрпнатите. И тие ќе пробаат да нè уништат, ако затреба и физички.

                        Ристо Вртев на времето пееше: „Таа е темница, која голта сè што е живо, во мене и во тебе“, пееше против војната, а вечерва ќе пее во чест на НАТО. Ќе ги воспева господарите на војната. И „Љубојна“ и „Баклава“ и „Фолтин“ и САФ и Дуке ќе пеат за НАТО. Срцето ме заболе. Над 500.000 цивили се убиени во авантурите на „мирољубивата“ алијанса. Нивните термини, колатерална штета и убиени во пријателски оган, зар не е тоа толку прекрасно што на човек веднаш му доаѓа да запее. Стотици илјади мажи, жени, деца и старци исчезнаа од лицето на Земјата онаму каде што маршираа НАТО-војските. Ќе се пее во чест на воена алијанса што ти порачува дека без промена на името и идентитетот, нема членство кај нив. Ем се најголемите планетарни убијци, ем бараат од тебе да се ликвидираш како постоење. И ти им пееш. Фали само уште чочек пред тунелот на македонскиот безизлез.
                        Кој пее, зло не мисли, така беседел нашиот народ. И во право е. Ама, пак, никаде не е кажано дека кој пее, не значи дека зло не поддржува. А НАТО е зло, сакале вие тоа да си го признаете или не. Ќе се запее ли нешто весело за масакрираните деца низ Блискиот Исток во чии соништа влетаа НАТО-проектили, ќе се поѕенѕа ли за сите силувани жени, за умрените од рак од прекрасниот НАТО-осиромашен ураниум? Знам, одвратен сум. И јас сум пеел. За НАТО. Еве, ќе ви споделам. Ова е песна, за НАТО песна, ама бидејќи се стихови, ќе одземат голем простор од колумнава, па затоа ќе ви ги наредам и одвојам со три точки. А еве што сум пеел, во чест на НАТО.
                        Светот е детско игралиште… Минско поле за да си играат невините… Детска игра, куц-камен… Креда исцртана врз асфалтот на смртта… Скокај, дете, на една нога до пеколот

                        Светот е роденденска забава… И проектилите за масовно уништување… И ракетите со дострел до твоите соништа… Се шарени свеќички врз тортата на смртта… Огномет за крајот на животот… А кловновите на ужасот… Под маските со хистерична смеа… Ги затвораат за тебе подароците на постоењето
                        Светот е свадба… Ѓаволот се жени со воените профитери… Бескрајно оро за лажни миротворци… Сценаристи на постојаната апокалипса… И ороводците ја силуваат невестата… И бајонетот ја кине невиноста… А крвта на чаршафот и последната воздишка… Се воени трофеи од крвавата веселба
                        Светот е шоу… Маркетинг-кампања за дум-дум и напалм… Пријателскиот оган е одобрен од експертите… Колатералната штета е препорачана од докторите… Дебатна емисија… Во која секогаш се согласуваат… Религиските фанатици, силувачите на верата… И модерните научници, џелатите на уката… Убиј го различниот од себе… Вирус за послабиот од тебе… А шоуто мора да продолжи… Додека има осиромашен ураниум во камерите
                        Светот е рајска градина… Во која цвеќињата на животот… Ги полеваат господарите на смртта
                        Ете, така сум му пеел на НАТО. И уште вака:
                        Свежо исечкано детство… По воена кампања… Што ќе ти донесе напалм-демократија од небото… Зачинето мелено месо… Семеен оброк од сервирано семејство… Кое се нашло на погрешно место… Во погрешно време… Во својот дом… Кога готвачите на човечките судбини… Одлучиле да им донесат слобода… На оние глупаци што токму тогаш… Одлучиле да спијат… Семеен оброк од испечено семејство… За да уживаат сладокусците, гурманите… Во своите удобни фотелји… Пред своите моќни телевизори… Вести за двајца… Гарнир од човечки животи… Во експрес-лонецот… На нашата цивилизација.

                        Сепак, не е мое да судам. Ова сè уште е слободна земја. Кога ќе стане и официјално Република Северна Македонија, за нас Македонците нема да биде слободна земја. Искрено, не се лутам, можеби малку, но вистински сум бескрајно и неизлечиво тажен. За мене вашата креативност, мислам на овие што сум ги споменал, секогаш ќе остане генијална креативност. На вашата музика сум растел, сум се вљубувал, сум паѓал, сум се подигал. Тоа нема да се промени. Јас и онака сум илјадапати полош од вас, погрешен од сите вас заедно, помизерен, победен, понедостоен од секоја ваша пауза меѓу две ноти, и тоа искрено го мислам. Ама едно знам, и тоа е вистина.
                        Јас сум Македонец. Од Република Македонија. И никој нема право да ми го одземе тоа. Да ме преименува мене или мојата татковина. Затоа што правото на самоидентификација ми е загарантирано. Секој обид да ми го сменат името од кое ми произлегува идентитетот ќе го сметам за насилство, а тој што ми го прави тоа, за насилник. И ќе се бранам од насилството колку и да е тоа моќно. Затоа што сум човек, не роб, човек со слободна волја, со слободен дух. И не прифаќам никакви нацистички договори за мое преименување. Јас не прифаќам Северна Македонија. Никогаш нема да бидам граѓанин на Република Северна Македонија по националност. А НАТО е злосторничка организација. Убијци на жени и на деца. Окупатори. Воени профитери. Трговци со живот, нафта и опиум. И тие ме уценуваат. Или ќе прифатам нацистички договор за укинување на мојот идентитет преку промена на уставното име или не ме примале. Е па, фала ти НАТО, збогум, никогаш не си ми ни требал.
                        Се надевам дека ве прелажале, дека ви подметнале, дека никогаш не би поддржале промена на името, укинување на македонскиот идентитет заради влез во НАТО. Се надевам и се молам на бога дека вечерва нема да излезете на сцената и, ветувам, јавно ќе ви се извинам што сум ве прозвал.

                        Comment

                        • Tomche Makedonche
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 1123

                          NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg officially greeted Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev in a ceremony to mark the start of membership talks, a development that drew an angry response from Moscow.


                          NATO Welcomes Start Of Macedonia Membership Talks As Moscow Fumes

                          NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg has officially greeted Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev in a ceremony to mark the start of membership talks, a development that drew an angry response from Moscow.

                          "Detailed accession talks will now begin to help your country make its final preparation for its full membership," Stoltenberg told Zaev on the sidelines of the Western alliance's summit in Brussels on July 12.

                          "Once all your national procedures are completed and all NATO allies have ratified your accession, you will become the 30th member of this alliance with a seat at our table, with an equal voice in our discussions, and the equal vote in our decisions," he said.

                          Zaev hailed the announcement, which had been expected, as a "great, historic day" for Macedonia, a landlocked country of 2 million people in the Western Balkans region.

                          "This decision is a recognition of our committed engagement over more than two decades," Zaev said.

                          "This is recognition for the work of all Macedonian politicians, from the time of our independence up to now. It is recognition for our institutions and for all political parties. This is the recognition for all our citizens and civil society and all others who patiently waited for this day," he added.

                          NATO has made clear that the invitation was largely contingent upon the implementation of Macedonia's agreement with alliance member Greece to resolve a multi-decade dispute the country's official name.

                          Greece has long objected to Macedonia's formal designation, since one region in Greece shares the same name.

                          But earlier this year, the two countries settled their dispute, with the country agreeing to rename itself as North Macedonia, although some opposition remains in the country to the compromise agreement.

                          The prospect of Macedonia joining NATO has angered Russia, which has long opposed the eastward expansion of the alliance, fearing a military threat.

                          "The pulling into NATO by force of Macedonia only confirms that the policy of 'open doors' has become an aim in itself and a tool to gain control of geopolitical territory," the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement on July 12.

                          Zaev has also expressed hopes of gaining European Union membership for his country, a move that would likely anger Moscow further.

                          The EU had urged Macedonia to settle its dispute with Greece and also step up the pace of domestic reforms and to cut down on corruption.

                          "Without open perspectives for NATO and EU membership, Macedonia's future is uncertain," Macedonian Defense Minister Radmila Sekerinska said on July 10 in a nationally televised address.

                          "NATO membership brings stability and security," she added.
                          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            Came across the following Greek opinion piece, although it contains the usual racist slurs (which I have left unedited in this instance), there are a number of statements made by the author which you don't often hear from a Greek

                            https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-eu...t-make-it-true

                            Greece & Macedonia: negotiating history doesn’t make it true

                            Augustine Zenakos 14 July 2018

                            Geopolitical expediency has forced a people to bargain with the only name history has left them. Reflect on this, before again dismissing them as mere instruments of NATO policy.

                            “When you are having a hard time, you call your friends.” The statement belongs to Zoran Zaev, Prime Minister of the (former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia – soon to be renamed Republic of North Macedonia, if the deal just concluded with Greece is ratified. The fact that Mr Zaev made this statement during a press conference, a few months ago, alongside Wess Mitchell, the US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, leaves no doubt who he believes his friends to be.

                            Admission into NATO and the EU has been a staple of FYROM’s foreign policy for years – despite the good relationship that the previous government, headed by Nikola Gruevski, enjoyed with Russia. The current government intensified efforts to be admitted into the Euro-Atlantic system, making quite a few concessions in the long-running naming dispute with Greece, so that Greek objections to FYROM’s NATO and EU memberships could at last be lifted.

                            The rapprochement would hardly have taken off if US officials had not made it as clear as possible that they supported FYROM’s Euro-Atlantic integration path, as part of NATO’s grand consolidation project in the Western Balkans. Starting with Slovenia in the mid 00s, this project continued with Albania and Croatia and 2009, and went on with Montenegro in 2017. FYROM is the next step in a course that presumably leads to Serbia, a country traumatized by NATO intervention and friendly with Russia, which still adheres to neutrality.

                            The completion of this project will create a solid NATO-bound Europe right up to the Russian border – a very different strategic situation to the one that existed during the Cold War. The EU is on board with all this, of course, according to the European Commission’s plan to integrate the Western Balkans into the Union by 2025.

                            The speedily deteriorating relations between NATO and the EU, on the one side, and Russia, on the other, are evidently a source of urgency for all these designs, and also the reason why FYROM’s Prime Minister was so confident his “friends” were willing to help.

                            Greek decision-making

                            If FYROM’s government considers the US to be its “friends”, then the Greek government’s relationship is positively cordial. Through its policy in the South Mediterranean, in particular, it has touted its determination to be a player in the geostrategic arc that includes Israel, Cyprus, and Egypt. It is obvious that, with an eye to its policies vis-à-vis Syria, Iran and Russia, the US is resuming a more direct patronage of Greek decision-making.

                            The Greek government, for its part, expects to reap multiple rewards: support against the hard-liners in Berlin; economic benefits in the energy game in the South Mediterranean; and protection against Turkey. It made sense therefore to go the extra mile in implementing US policy at its northern borders, too. And, if truth be told, the SYRIZA-led government was in a unique position to attempt a compromise in the naming dispute with FYROM: as a left-wing party, SYRIZA is not as dependent on the hard nationalist vote as its right-wing rivals, so it could handle the political pressure better than just about anyone else. Indeed, polls show that it has weathered the storm as well as could be expected.

                            So, a deal was reached between FYROM and Greece because ending the decades-long dispute became important for NATO and the EU. Criticism of this fact ranges from chastising a party of the radical left for turning pro-NATO in government, to pointing out that NATO militarisation in the Balkans is not necessarily a guaranty of stability and peace. Both these points are obviously valid.

                            Macedonia

                            However, opposing NATO and EU designs, particularly in view of the possibility of new international conflicts, should not mean disregarding the substance of the deal as a long-delayed –albeit partial– remedy to a grave injustice.

                            Greece has long maintained that Macedonians, meaning the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, are not a “true” nation, and that their language is not a “true” language. Both these assertions are false.

                            It is difficult to know exactly when people started self-identifying as “Macedonians” in an ethnic sense. But there is evidence that at least by the end of the 19th century some did. The records of Ellis Island show that in 1897 there were immigrants to the US, who stated their ethnicity as Macedonian. In all, about nine thousand people arriving at Ellis Island between 1897 and 1924 declared their ethnicity to be Macedonian.

                            Naturally, there were varied and often contradictory aims and loyalties within the Macedonian national movement. Some participants were loyal to Bulgaria while others supported independence for the region. There were Slavic-speakers who sided with Greek interests (often highly mythologised in Greek historiography). There appeared, also, a sort of Balkan “liberal federalism”, advocating a Macedonia for all Macedonians, regardless of ethnicity or religion. In the spirit created by the Young Turk Revolution of 1908, which promised liberalisation in subject territories of the Ottoman Empire, a movement for a republican, multi-ethnic Macedonia appeared, with some participants inspired by socialist and anarchist ideas. Every national narrative is, in the final analysis, a “construct”. The same is true of the status of a language. There is a famous quip, which pretty much sums it up: “a language is a dialect with an army and navy”.

                            Macedonian nationalism is perhaps the youngest in the Balkans, but it does exist. To say it is a “construct” is a moot point. Every national narrative is, in the final analysis, a “construct”. The same is true of the status of a language. There is a famous quip, which pretty much sums it up: “a language is a dialect with an army and navy”. The “decision” on whether something is a language or a dialect is never a purely historical or linguistic matter, but mainly a political one. It is, therefore, quite a distortion to maintain –as many in Greece, in Bulgaria and in Serbia do to this day – that the Macedonian national consciousness was “invented” by Tito’s Yugoslavia. On the contrary, Federal Yugoslavia’s policy in the region was an acknowledgement of a nationalism that already existed for at least five decades. So, though the process was protracted and incongruous – which is hardly surprising – what emerged between the end of the nineteenth century and the break-up of Yugoslavia was in no uncertain terms a Macedonian nation.

                            Macedonian nationhood is not a fiction – any more than any other “national history” is. It is as legitimate as the next. Being against all nationalisms, in the sense of disapproving nationalist hatred and opposing conflict, is one thing; summarily dismissing a people’s lived perception of themselves as a kind of historical fraud is quite another.

                            Fascism and irredentism …

                            Why did the Greek state, as well as a great number of Greeks, treat their northern neighbours like pariahs of history? One reason is indeed the way that the nationalism of the Greek state has been conceived – as a huge, direct leap to ancient glory. Macedonia, in the Greek narrative, can only refer to ancient Macedon – which is what was “liberated” in twentieth century wars. The “antiquization” programme pursued by the political party VMRO-DPMNE and its leader Nikola Gruevski, who was in power in the Republic of Macedonia between 2006 and 2016, did not help matters. Partly invented as a response to Greek recalcitrance, this programme was organised around the claim that contemporary ethnic Macedonians are descendants of ancient Macedonians, who therefore were not Greek. “Antiquization”, however, met with considerable resistance. According to historian Athena Skoulariki, “in the 2015 protests, they were throwing paint on the archaistic monuments and statues. Under the mounted Alexander the Great statue, they wrote: ‘This is fascism’”.

                            Another – far more spurious – reason was FYROM’s “irredentism”. Supposedly, the country that declared its independence in 1991 preserved the historical demand of the Macedonian national movement to liberate the entire region from Ottoman rule, and therefore now coveted Greek territory. Of course, a country that has only 20% of the population of Greece and virtually no military forces cannot reasonably be considered a security concern. And, to add irony to injury, Greece never accepted that Macedonians had had a national movement anyway, preferring instead to think of them as Bulgarians, Serbs or generally “Slavs”, except when discussing them as a threat to its sovereignty. Then, suddenly, they became extremely menacing, always as the brunt of an anti-Greek conspiracy that involved the West and invariably its most willing pawn: Turkey.

                            … and those who didn’t fit in

                            The darkest reason, though, for dismissing FYROM as a historical joke was avoiding the question: what will become of those who do not fall into the neat categories of negotiated history? What will happen with the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece? What will happen with the Greek Slavic-Macedonian speakers and their descendants that were deprived of all rights in their country, after they fled as political refugees to Yugoslavia in the late 1940s?

                            Greece has maintained that an ethnic Macedonian minority does not exist in its territory. This was ostensibly a strategy directed against Macedonian "irredentism", which might have sought a pretext in the protection of this minority in order to claim Greek territory. Though there is historical precedent in Europe for such an irredentist manipulation of minorities, in reality Greece has been masking its own policies of forced Hellenization in the region: ethnic Macedonian communities in Greece have been suppressed, from the 1920s to the present day. For decades they lived under police surveillance, and their language was forbidden. Even their songs were banned, and for years they were played as instrumentals, without the lyrics. Statistical recording of this population was stopped (since the state considered the minority non-existent), so there is very little concrete information on its scale or its evolution.

                            After the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, there was also a large number of Greek citizens that were ethnic Macedonians, or in any case Slavic-Macedonian speakers, who fought on the losing side and fled to Yugoslav Macedonia. These people were deprived of citizenship and property. They and their descendants have been excluded from all subsequent laws that provided for a right of return for political refugees.

                            These issues are not simply a matter of historical acknowledgment – though that is not in itself insignificant. They are also very much of the present: there is still an ethnic Macedonian minority in northern Greece, and there are still descendants of refugees with no right to return or to claim property. Both these groups are continually deprived not just of the right to have the historical injustices against them officially acknowledged, but also of basic freedoms.

                            Rejoice!

                            It is, therefore, a reason to rejoice that the recent deal at long last acknowledges the Macedonian nationality and the Macedonian language. The Greek government, of course, in an effort to placate nationalist reaction, has stressed that nationality is not the same as ethnicity, and that what the deal acknowledges is not “ethnic Macedonians”, but only “Macedonian citizens”.

                            Also, it has made quite a lot of the fact that in the text of the agreement the Macedonian language is described as having Slavic origin, attempting to appease those who think that Macedonian should only describe the language spoken by Alexander the Great. But both these points, though technically correct, do not change the fact that no acknowledgement of nationality or language could have been achieved without at least an implicit acceptance that the staunch denial of Macedonian nationhood has to be dropped.

                            Still, the deal is hardly fair. Although a “composite name” (meaning to affix some additional designation in front of “Macedonia”, such as “North” which was finally the preferred choice) has been considered the basis of an eventual solution since the beginning, it is far from self-evident that this is the reasonable and just compromise it is purported to be. On the contrary, agreeing to rename their country Republic of North Macedonia is the price Macedonians are paying so that they can be allowed to call themselves what they have been calling themselves for almost a century and a half – without their economy being strangled and their country blocked from participating in international organisations. We should not flinch from saying it: in this dispute, Greece was the aggressor.

                            To put it another way, the only Macedonians that in fact did not need a "composite name" are the citizens of the Republic of (North) Macedonia. The reason should be obvious: they are the only Macedonians for whom "Macedonian" is the primary designation of ethnic identity. Every other Macedonian around is something else first – Greek, Serb, Bulgarian and so on. But no such person, if asked where they are from on a trip abroad, would reply that they are from Macedonia instead of Greece, Serbia or Bulgaria. De facto, all Macedonians in neighbouring countries already have “composite names”.

                            Geopolitical expediency has forced a people to bargain with the only name history has left them. We should perhaps try to reflect on this, before dismissing them once again – this time as mere instruments of NATO policy.
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                            Comment

                            • Niko777
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 1895

                              From today, Bitolcani celebrating Nato membership

                              Comment

                              • Bill77
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2009
                                • 4545

                                This place was rocking.....






                                And so was Shtip
                                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X