Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Gocka]

I second the Slav vs Indigenous Macedonian theory.

It has happened on a sub conscious level. Post WW2 euphoria, good old communist education, and Yugo fever basically made a few generations of Macedonians believe that they are Slavs. Now since the average Macedonian knows as much history as a door knob, they never really contemplated what that meant for their nation, their identity, language, religion, etc.

Fast forward and as you say the evolution the mutation of that virus is evident in the Macedonian left. When combined with there globalist, pro European feelings, the idea of being Slavs just helps cement their ideology that nations in Europe are an old concept, and that one day there will be no nations, just Europeans. The whole dispute with Greece is inconvenient to their greater agenda, and since they don't believe in nationalism anyway, if being a Slav gets them into the EU then so be it, its all just in the past anyway right?

If you spend time in Macedonia, you will find that everything, and I mean everything, is tied to the two main political parties. European Slavs are essentially SDSM, Indigenous Macedonians are DPMNE. The problem is that since everything is about politics, the citizens that fall into one political affiliation or the other, don't actually perceive the situation as a choice between Slav or Macedonian, they are solely focused on the political ramifications. Their ignorance, is guiding this manifestation, rather than a conscious choice. If you framed the question right, the vast majority of Macedonians would tell you that they have always been from the region, but veer your question a little left or right, and you will hear totally contradictory assertions.

No matter what issue we talk about, everything comes back full circle that Macedonians are piss poor, morals and principles. Nothing is off limits, nothing is absolute, anything can be justified based on the situation and the question at hand. Although most pretend that they "dont care" about politics, push the right button and see how quickly you get called a DPMNE or SDSM supporter.

People in FYROM, have no baseline to form their opinions from. Even when DPMNE supporters end up on the correct side of an ideological argument, they aren't aware of it, they stumble into it, and can easily stumble out of it. This is useless to our cause. If the only reason you hold a stance is to be in opposition to someone else's stance, then you theoretically support anything.

So if DPMNE supporters technically consider themselves indigenous Macedonians for now, what use is that when DPMNE is back in power and negotiating a name change with Greece, or appeasing Albanian demands?

The only true indigenous Macedonians are few and far between, and mostly in the diaspora.

We have known a difference has come to exist for a long time now within the Republic, how to accurately define it has evolved over the years and is still debatable. What can be generally accepted is that the difference has been essentially ideologically based, most likely derived from a product of Yugoslavian (perhaps even Soviet influenced) communist indoctrination. I relate it to a kind of synthetic virus, a virus which has, contrary to its original intention, found a way to adapt itself in order to survive independently after the original host died, and now seeks to mutate itself to accommodate new similar hosts.

I have mentioned this before but the question I fear we may have to start to consider asking at some point is whether this process has evolved the virus into something more than just a difference in ideology, whether it is in fact becoming a difference in identity.

I feel it is this element which makes acceptance become a complicated matter, as acceptance could see our path directed towards an alternate trajectory, one which right now may be premature to commit to as its consequences may prove to be detrimental to the cause, hence in this respect I share your hesitations.

Nevertheless, the difference exists. Its extent is what needs to be accurately determined.

Can we now confidently state there are two separate Macedonian identities existing within the Republic? (i.e. The European Slav whose Macedonian identity is derived from a regional sense similar to the “Greek” Macedonian; and The Indigenous Macedonian whose Macedonian identity is derived from an ethnic ancestral sense).

Although I've highlighted its likely existence, to be honest, I couldn’t wholly or officially commit to such a conclusion at this point, but there certainly appears to be more and more indicators that point towards that direction, a prime and convincing example being the article that you responded to.

[Gocka]

If this is true, it is a brilliant master stroke by the plate smashers.

I will happily take bets that this passes a FYROM referendum.

Wow that is brilliant. Think about how that will look on respective referendums. On the Macedonians side, people will just read it as:

do you want your country to be name Severna Makedonija, they won't even understand or even read the other technicalities.

On the Greek side the question will be in Greek, but the name will be in Latinica.

This still has a good chance to be rejected in Greece funny enough, but in FYROM this passes hands down.

If anyone believes Macedonians have the intellectually ability to understand this proposal or its consequences, well then I own a bridge in Brooklyn and I can sell it to you for a great deal!

Apparently Greece will allow a new name that contains the word Macedonia, but here's the catch, it will not allow it to be translated into English. In other words, Greece will hold a monopoly to the English word "Macedonia". Macedonia's new name will be spelled in Serbian Latinica, ex. "Severna Makedonija", and that's the name to be used in all international organizations. In the olympics we will march under the letter "S", not "M", and not even "N" for Northern Macedonia, but "S" for "Severna Makedonija".

The only other state I can think of that is not allowed to translate its name in English is Bosnia's autonomous region of "Republika Srpska" Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska

[Niko777]

Wow that is brilliant. Think about how that will look on respective referendums.

There won't be a referendum in Greece

[vicsinad]

A glimmer of hope:

Immediately after the talks, Macedonian Ambassador and name negotiator Vasko Naumovski told media that the proposals presented by Nimetz were “far from a dignified solution,” that the name, Republic of Macedonia, is the basis for identity, and that he was not optimistic.

https://medium.com/@Miko_Janos/matthew-nimetz-nikola-dimitrov-and-vladimir-gligorov-4c85471d268d

[Niko777]

A glimmer of hope:

https://medium.com/@Miko_Janos/matth...v-4c85471d268d

Don't count on it. He just said it to stir up some trouble and damage Zaev's "momentum". Naumovski was appointed as negotiator under the Gruevski government and is still a member of DPMNE, but for whatever reason Zaev never bothered to replace him.

[Niko777]

Naumovski also said: “we have a name, it is the republic of Macedonia... no one can deny the existence of a Macedonian nation and language.”

Yeah a little too late, don't you think? Why didn't he say this 3 years ago when he was negotiating under Gruevski's administration? Maybe if he had we wouldn't have been in the mess we are now.

[Risto the Great]

There were "mini-Serbs" in the former Yugoslavian Macedonia because it was economically favourable to be so. Now there are fyromian macebanians because it is favourable to be deemed progressive in this sense. The environment creates opportunities to be seized upon.

The mini serbs and the macbanians and the fyromians are all Macedonians when you talk to them. There is no doubt about this. But they are just SHIT Macedonians.

If we agree with the 2 ethnicities within Macedonia, then we are also agreeing with Egejci etc. being different and we are falling right into the hands of our oppressors since ancient Roman days and the first lot of artificial borders. These are just SHIT MACEDONIANS, no need to overthink it.

We have known a difference has come to exist for a long time now within the Republic, how to accurately define it has evolved over the years and is still debatable. What can be generally accepted is that the difference has been essentially ideologically based, most likely derived from a product of Yugoslavian (perhaps even Soviet influenced) communist indoctrination. I relate it to a kind of synthetic virus, a virus which has, contrary to its original intention, found a way to adapt itself in order to survive independently after the original host died, and now seeks to mutate itself to accommodate new similar hosts.

I have mentioned this before but the question I fear we may have to start to consider asking at some point is whether this process has evolved the virus into something more than just a difference in ideology, whether it is in fact becoming a difference in identity.

I feel it is this element which makes acceptance become a complicated matter, as acceptance could see our path directed towards an alternate trajectory, one which right now may be premature to commit to as its consequences may prove to be detrimental to the cause, hence in this respect I share your hesitations.

Nevertheless, the difference exists. Its extent is what needs to be accurately determined.

Can we now confidently state there are two separate Macedonian identities existing within the Republic? (i.e. The European Slav whose Macedonian identity is derived from a regional sense similar to the “Greek” Macedonian; and The Indigenous Macedonian whose Macedonian identity is derived from an ethnic ancestral sense).

Although I've highlighted its likely existence, to be honest, I couldn’t wholly or officially commit to such a conclusion at this point, but there certainly appears to be more and more indicators that point towards that direction, a prime and convincing example being the article that you responded to.

[Gocka]

We dont know that for sure, if there is one in Macedonia it will be a hard sell for Greek leadership to justify not having one in Greece as well.

\

There won't be a referendum in Greece

[Vangelovski]

There were "mini-Serbs" in the former Yugoslavian Macedonia because it was economically favourable to be so. Now there are fyromian macebanians because it is favourable to be deemed progressive in this sense. The environment creates opportunities to be seized upon.

The mini serbs and the macbanians and the fyromians are all Macedonians when you talk to them. There is no doubt about this. But they are just SHIT Macedonians.

If we agree with the 2 ethnicities within Macedonia, then we are also agreeing with Egejci etc. being different and we are falling right into the hands of our oppressors since ancient Roman days and the first lot of artificial borders. These are just SHIT MACEDONIANS, no need to overthink it.

I think the term was vrtikapi?

[Gocka]

Yes it was. Lol I use that word all the time.

I think the term was vrtikapi?

[Tomche Makedonche]

I second the Slav vs Indigenous Macedonian theory.

It has happened on a sub conscious level. Post WW2 euphoria, good old communist education, and Yugo fever basically made a few generations of Macedonians believe that they are Slavs. Now since the average Macedonian knows as much history as a door knob, they never really contemplated what that meant for their nation, their identity, language, religion, etc.

Fast forward and as you say the evolution the mutation of that virus is evident in the Macedonian left. When combined with there globalist, pro European feelings, the idea of being Slavs just helps cement their ideology that nations in Europe are an old concept, and that one day there will be no nations, just Europeans. The whole dispute with Greece is inconvenient to their greater agenda, and since they don't believe in nationalism anyway, if being a Slav gets them into the EU then so be it, its all just in the past anyway right?

If you spend time in Macedonia, you will find that everything, and I mean everything, is tied to the two main political parties. European Slavs are essentially SDSM, Indigenous Macedonians are DPMNE. The problem is that since everything is about politics, the citizens that fall into one political affiliation or the other, don't actually perceive the situation as a choice between Slav or Macedonian, they are solely focused on the political ramifications. Their ignorance, is guiding this manifestation, rather than a conscious choice. If you framed the question right, the vast majority of Macedonians would tell you that they have always been from the region, but veer your question a little left or right, and you will hear totally contradictory assertions.

No matter what issue we talk about, everything comes back full circle that Macedonians are piss poor, morals and principles. Nothing is off limits, nothing is absolute, anything can be justified based on the situation and the question at hand. Although most pretend that they "dont care" about politics, push the right button and see how quickly you get called a DPMNE or SDSM supporter.

People in FYROM, have no baseline to form their opinions from. Even when DPMNE supporters end up on the correct side of an ideological argument, they aren't aware of it, they stumble into it, and can easily stumble out of it. This is useless to our cause. If the only reason you hold a stance is to be in opposition to someone else's stance, then you theoretically support anything.

So if DPMNE supporters technically consider themselves indigenous Macedonians for now, what use is that when DPMNE is back in power and negotiating a name change with Greece, or appeasing Albanian demands?

The only true indigenous Macedonians are few and far between, and mostly in the diaspora.

I think it’s incorrect to simply equate this phenomenon in a sense of political ideology. There are nationalists and globalists on both sides of the fence, and there are many self-identified Slavs supporting DPNE who view mother Russia as their saviours and brothers. It’s not a Communist vs Capitalist thing; it’s not a progressive vs conservative thing; it’s not a left vs right thing; and it’s not a globalist vs nationalist thing. This phenomenon appears to transcend politics, which is what is making me start to question whether it has become more than just ideology. As I said before, I don’t know the answer, or even if its possible for such phenomenon’s to evolve into something more, but at least for me, the question remains nonetheless.

[Tomche Makedonche]

There were "mini-Serbs" in the former Yugoslavian Macedonia because it was economically favourable to be so. Now there are fyromian macebanians because it is favourable to be deemed progressive in this sense. The environment creates opportunities to be seized upon.

The mini serbs and the macbanians and the fyromians are all Macedonians when you talk to them. There is no doubt about this. But they are just SHIT Macedonians.

If we agree with the 2 ethnicities within Macedonia, then we are also agreeing with Egejci etc. being different and we are falling right into the hands of our oppressors since ancient Roman days and the first lot of artificial borders. These are just SHIT MACEDONIANS, no need to overthink it.

Not necessarily, we know that there are indigenous Macedonians in the occupied areas as they identify as such, many have accepted a Greek/Bulgarian nationality, which is based on the reality of their current residency (no different to the Diaspora accepting Australian, Canadian, American, etc nationality), some have gone beyond that.

I agree that this phenomenon is essentially ideologically based (as stated so in my opening paragraph), but is there a point where it evolves beyond that?

Yugoslavia doesn’t exist anymore, so who exactly are these self-identified “Slavs” of RoMacedonia “turning their hats” for?, they aren’t self-identifying as Serb’s, Bulgarians, Russians, or even Europeans, and what’s worse is that they don’t appear to believe in a Macedonian ethnicity. We may now correctly interpret that as just SHIT Macedonians, but at some point in the future reality may force us to re-evaluate that interpretation whether we like it or not.

As I stated in my response to Gocka , I don’t know the answer, or even if it’s possible for such phenomenon’s to evolve into something more, but at least for me the question remains nonetheless (whether its politically correct to or not)

[Carlin]

Eп. 1 Историска позадина на противењето на Грција кон името Македонија, македонската нација и јазик - youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlZK2Lif8M

[Risto the Great]

I think the term was vrtikapi?

In a similar way ... I recall my baba saying "so dve g'zoi" when telling me about how the father of a vocal (local) Macedonian was found dead with his genitals cut off and in his mouth for being a Grkoman back in the selo. The good ole days.

[Gocka]

You are over thinking it mate. Macedonians don't have ideologies. Nothing in Macedonia transcends politics.

I think it’s incorrect to simply equate this phenomenon in a sense of political ideology. There are nationalists and globalists on both sides of the fence, and there are many self-identified Slavs supporting DPNE who view mother Russia as their saviours and brothers. It’s not a Communist vs Capitalist thing; it’s not a progressive vs conservative thing; it’s not a left vs right thing; and it’s not a globalist vs nationalist thing. This phenomenon appears to transcend politics, which is what is making me start to question whether it has become more than just ideology. As I said before, I don’t know the answer, or even if its possible for such phenomenon’s to evolve into something more, but at least for me, the question remains nonetheless.