Velika Popovska 64 year old woman turned away from Greek border 10th July 2012

[Vangelovski]

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/31/67/

Vodenka,

According to that link, one of UMD's objectives is:

Strengthen the unity among the Macedonian Diaspora

What does that actually mean? What do they want to unify Macedonians around?

[Vangelovski]

"forward" to me, Vangelovski, means towards the solution of a problem, any problem, if, indeed, a solution is wanted in the first place.

And what do you see as the problem?

[Angliski]

The problem that I see, Vangelovski, is two national neighbors that cannot or will not solve a dispute that diminishes and disadvantages both of them even though a solution would greatly benefit both. Of course, others see the situation differently. We all have our point of view.

[Vangelovski]

The problem that I see, Vangelovski, is two national neighbors that cannot or will not solve a dispute that diminishes and disadvantages both of them even though a solution would greatly benefit both. Of course, others see the situation differently. We all have our point of view.

And what is this dispute?

[Angliski]

That's OK, Vangelovski, I don't mind being led by the nose. I've been married for 35 years, after all. But if you enjoy playing The Grand Inquisitor, let's cut to the last question, "What's your solution?"

I have no solution and I have no answers. Nor do I have a solution for the more pressing issues of Global Warming or the world economic crisis.

The only "solution" is the statement by the British economist Maynard Keynes when he said, "In the long run, we are all dead." only, it seems that the "long run" is getting shorter every day.

What are your thoughts?

[Phoenix]

The problem that I see, Vangelovski, is two national neighbors that cannot or will not solve a dispute that diminishes and disadvantages both of them even though a solution would greatly benefit both. Of course, others see the situation differently. We all have our point of view.

Angliski, as an outsider to this dispute what's your perspective regarding a fair resolution to this problem?

[Angliski]

Please refer to my above reply to Vangelovski, Phoenix. It should be as clear as a bell.

[Angliski]

As an elaboration, Phoenix, I am not a naïf on the way to the Eaton Centre who just decided to drop in because it looked comfortable here. I am a retired journalist and professor who has some awareness, of and interest in, the Balkans area though that is not my field.

With respect to your question Regarding the Greece/Macedonia name dispute and it's solution, the mechanisms for a solution have been in place for many years. In these cases, a solution normally comes after mutual good-will, compromise, pressure or capitulation. None of these elements figure in the name dispute yet.

I am not here as an advocate. As a former student of Chomskey's, however, I am passionate about facts because I think they are the only things that keep us from descent into madness (a condition that some would say we have already reached as a species). The good news is that I am agreeable to correction when proved wrong (Keynes also said, "When the facts change, I change my opinion").

The Macedonian issue interests me particularly because it is a late development of a national entity taking place well after the years of the creation of the nation state and affords us the opportunity to understand the critical and powerful process further. It is terribly interesting.

I hope that this post is clear in most respects and that it is not taken as condescending or antagonistic, neither of which it is meant to be.

All the best,

[machorot]

"forward" to me, Vangelovski, means towards the solution of a problem, any problem, if, indeed, a solution is wanted in the first place.

Analogies are often unsatisfactory, Phoenix, and the connection between Australian aborigines and Balkan politics lies well beyond my intellectual limits.

Rightly or wrongly, the Greeks see the use of Macedonian place names on passports as a challenge and a Provocation in the context of the broader " Name Dispute." From some of the posts, that appears to be how they are meant. One side challenges, the other responds. And the beat goes on.

Regarding military conquest, it is, historically, the most common method of territorial expansion. One would be hard pressed to find an established country that has not been formed as a result of it.

^^ Do you think it is right or wrong, and why?

[Bill77]

Rightly or wrongly, the Greeks see the use of Macedonian place names on passports as a challenge and a Provocation in the context of the broader " Name Dispute."

This blocking of entry at border crossings is not a new phenomenon. It has been occurring well before ROG created this name dispute.

Yes you are an outsider, and your naivety clearly shows this. Its best you don't give simple minded advice to matters you have no idea of.

[machorot]

http://languagecharter.eokik.hu/site...in_Romania.htm
The above shows the situation of the Macedonians in Romania (EU country)

http://ec.europa.eu/languages/euromosaic/el3_en.htm#3

L'étude Euromosaic
Le (slavo)macédonien/bulgare) en Grèce
The above is the situation of the Macedonian language in Greece! In EU does not even know how to call our language!!! - (slavo) Macedonian/Bulgarian !?!?

Macedonians as a minority in Romania are very active politically with their party and they have excellent results, one of which is that only in Romania the Macedonian language is recognized officially in the EU.
In Greece we have Vinozhito and we have to be very grateful the party exists and is always complaining about how bad is to live in Greece but it does not give a s@it how they call us or our language in the EU!!!!
So, it is not just Greece to blame for the situation we are in and the reason why Macedonians are blocked at the greek border from entering the country.
Now, you can sit and write your complaints in this forum, for ever. Nothing will change if the attitude of Macedonians will not change.

Vodenka, that Euromosaic page is written in French, and yes they do write "(slavo)macédonien", but the link to get to that page is under the Banner "Greece - Macedonian". What are you waiting for, get to work and have it changed.

Also if you go through the various comparitive studies, the language is listed as "Macedonian".

[Vangelovski]

That's OK, Vangelovski, I don't mind being led by the nose. I've been married for 35 years, after all. But if you enjoy playing The Grand Inquisitor, let's cut to the last question, "What's your solution?"

I have no solution and I have no answers. Nor do I have a solution for the more pressing issues of Global Warming or the world economic crisis.

The only "solution" is the statement by the British economist Maynard Keynes when he said, "In the long run, we are all dead." only, it seems that the "long run" is getting shorter every day.

What are your thoughts?

I'm not asking you for a 'solution', I'm asking you what you think the dispute is and what it is you think Macedonians need to 'forget'.

[julie]

Once again, as this seems to be coming up -
VODENKA

MY GRANDFATHER has also been wiped off the face of the earth, as has my mum, there is no record of her or his existence, why do you continue to ignore my lengthy posts?

AS for my mother being the "stone" - the Australian government will only issue passports with place of birth, not being a country - TWICE my mother had entered those false thieved borders in 1972 and 1991 with dolno kotori

tHE AUSTRALIAN government would only issue the new passport with that information
Is it deliberate bringing up the same response to agitate me, when I have clearly and in an extremely dumbed down version written my earlier lengthy posts to explain

Mum is in Bitola until the 21st JULY

TO ANY GREEKS, OR BY PERCHANCE YOU ARE READING THIS - MAY YOU BURY YOUR NEAREST AND MOST LOVED PERSON FOR THE INJUSTICES YOU HAVE IMPOSED AND CONTINUE TO IMPOSE ON MY PEOPLE YOU FAKE FUCKED UP CREATED STATE OF FORMER OTTOMAN EMPIRE OF GREECE OF 1829 BY BRITANNIA, IF YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS JUST AND EQUATABLE

Vodenka

continue to defend the grkomani border guards and I will see you as a typical grkoman spy

g
GEORGE

What is that email address for Bob Carr, and when did you make contact so I may refer to that in a letter of protest

To the AMHRC, they received the required requested information late last night from me, and are continuing to try and help mum
If she cannot go home, then I am personally advocating for a checklist for each and every Oz Aegean Macedonian to have on the ready , so that they may never endure the heartbreak

[julie]

JULI IM BLAGODARAM NA SITE MAKEDONCI ZA PODRZKATA TAGUVAM STO NAMOZAM DA SE VRATAM VO SELOTO DO 21 SUM VO BITOLA POTOA ODAM OHRID DO SITE PRIJATELI VI BLAGODARAM NA SITE SO LJUBOV MAJKATI VELIKA

facebook email via my cousins friend , mum thanks everyone for their support, and sends her heartfelt thanks and love, and is heartbroken being denied entry

[Louis]

Some notes:

-Vodenka is right, so I can’t see why everybody attacks her. This is a known problem. The fact that your mother entered in 1972 or 1991 doesn’t change that. You already know, it was right after that, that things escalated.

-I’ll stick to my previous advice. You don’t have time to solve the problem with Australia NOW. Your mother has enough time to make (or at least try) the following route:
Bitola- Strunga- enter Albania 1h40min
-in Albania: Lin- Korce- Krystallopigi (enter Greece) 1h10min
-in Greece: Kristallopigi- Florina 1h45min

This is a common route with many buses.
Now, I (only) think she will not be blocked again in Krystallopigi (to the best of my knowledge). Can Vodenka confirm that? Or give us the chances? I don’t want to risk Julie’s curses.

I guess she can return from the same post where they first blocked her:
Florina- Bitola: 30min