FAZ 2.8.12 - die geschichte einer fast vergessenen vertreibung

[Dimko-piperkata]

holy shit

germany, as a creator of greece (1832), is going to avert from his invalid child....

this article in the FAZ is a new era
even not i my sweetesr dreams i would await this...that is fucking unbelievable that the germans write the true story of our nightmare with greece....the FAZ recognize the genocid on the macedonians

THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF GREECE

UNITED, UNITED, UNITED
MACEDONIA

[Big Chukalo]

Is there some way that this can be translated into english, or, at least hit the highlights with a brief synopsis. It looks very interesting and quite possibly important.

[George S.]

yhey should tell the greeks to behave or else.

[damian]

the hidden agendas everywhere come out at these moments...how did germany create modern greece?

[Niko777]

FYI:

"F.A.Z. has a circulation of 366,844. It is published daily in Frankfurt. The F.A.Z. runs its own correspondent network. Its editorial policy is not determined by a single editor, but cooperatively by five editors. It is the German newspaper with the widest circulation abroad, with its editors claiming to deliver the newspaper to 148 countries every day."

[damian]

yah but why print this now while Germany is making a bid to take over Europe economically...Germany was also very active in supporting Croatia and the KLA and Greater Albania in general

[George S.]

hidden agenda my foot if nobody gave them those predictions unless it was a secret society.

[Dimko-piperkata]

here´s the translation

Fall of Greece
The story of an (almost) forgotten expulsion by Michael Martens

Greece's foreign policy is currently mainly from the attempt to supplement the battered reputation of the state. Besides the attention of the Athenians, but diplomacy shall continue a foreign policy chief enemy, the fight two million inhabitants, neighboring state of Macedonia, the EU and NATO membership in Athens, by all means. Only when Macedonia has chosen a new name, the Greek veto should be abolished. Because Macedonia was Greek alone, be alone and always will be Greek. These days it came back again in a diplomatic skirmish, name dispute. "The occasion was the visit of UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon in Skopje in the past week, with the Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski called on the neighboring state publicly to respect the rights of the Macedonian minority. The rule, which takes nothing under Greek politicians enraged reliable than the assertion that there is a Macedonian minority in their country, turned out well this time. According to the official Athens interpretation exists such a minority that is not. Gruevski, it said in a reaction of the Greek Foreign Ministry on a visit to Skopje bans should, finally aufh6ren, to operate agitprop "and propaganda." One reason for the irritability of Athenian diplomacy at the mention of a Macedonian minority in the past: In Greece, in 1949 there was an ethnic cleansing that has not really worked up until today. Who deals with the background of these events, as the Austrian Adamantios Skordos historian has done, meets with a dark chapter in recent Greek history. Almost exactly a century, during the First Balkan War, Greece, conquered most of the historic region of Macedonia from the Ottoman Empire. Tell Another, the so-called Vardar Macedonia was, after all of Yugoslavia, a small tip (Pirin Macedonia ") in Bulgaria. Greeks were in much of the newly acquired territory in the minority. especially the northwestern border with Yugoslavia settled by Slavic farmers. the beat, even in memory their suppression in Greece, the Greek civil war majority on the side of the communists that came to them are too expensive for their defeat 1949th Tens of thousands fled and were allowed, other than the purely Greek "refugees, never to return. Yet had during the Civil War, politicians and newspapers of the bourgeois camp, called for the sell, slavophones from Greece.

In an article in the Athens newspaper, Kathimerini, "it said in June 1946 that originally alleged 130000,, Slavophones in Greek West Macedonia 20 000 have already left the country towards Yugoslavia, while about 80,000 Slavomacedonians "as the newspaper called them, still an enemy beachhead" were in Greece. They would either be extended or relocated, called Kathimerini. Radical put it, the newspaper, Elliniki Foni. "(Greek voice) to the Greek border town of Florina (Macedonian activist), you referred to in what was then a fresh historical allusion, the Slavic Macedonians in Greece as, Sudeten in Macedonia" and called, 'You have to distributed be! As long as no effective measures are taken, and as long as those few slavomacedonians, these vipers. not as undesirables are expelled, this region will never come to rest. Because their goal is to strike a decisive blow against the land of Alexander the Great. run it. "comparisons to the Sudeten Germans appeared often in the former discussion. In the high-circulation newspaper today," To Vima "as it was called in February 1947, The slavomacedonians must leave Greece because they are enemies of the Greek state. They are the Sudeten Greece and work with all means of undermining the national foundations of this country. "Against those Slav Macedonians, who remained in Greece, the Greek government continued after the war already continued before the war began aggressive campaign forced Hellenization, the focus was, to take measures to eradicate bilingualism ". It came to Stalinist-style government (repentance) as the confessions of a Greek woman converted to the North-west-Macedonia : "It is now upright all Greeks know that the Slav communist, these murderers of human dignity and human race, the most ruthless enemies of Greece are. . . . Slav communist The hordes, are malformations of the human race, whose purpose is to destroy everything that is Greek, and the. . . will seek to devour the body of our beautiful Macedonia. Therefore, I deny the Communists full with emotions disgust. I also distance myself from my husband., Despite my repeated requests. these monsters, these enslaved traitors of our beautiful home is faithful. "After the election victory of Andreas Papandreou and his socialist PASOK in 1981, came to Greece for his shift to the left, the position of, Slavophones" in the Greek part of Macedonia and in exile, but barely touched.
Although it was the 'anti-Slav campaign "in 1974 after the Turkish occupation Cyprus has been greatly scaled back and replaced by the enemy Turkey. From a general amnesty of the Papandreou government, which all left-wing civil war refugees allowed to return, the Slavic Macedonians remained specifically excluded. The relevant law is in force today. All the Greek parliamentary parties, the Communists, on their side, the Slavic Macedonians in Greece fighting stand behind it. The former Prime Minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis, his daughter, Dora Bakogiannis as Secretary of the existence of a Macedonian minority in Greece, also denied that this policy brought in 1995 with the remark in a nutshell, the "name dispute" has never interested him. He had always gone about it that a new minority problem arises in Western Macedonia, so Mitsotakis, who described it as his main concern, that the Republic (of Macedonia) openly admits that there is no slavomacedonian minority in Greece. "For it is beyond doubt, that as a minority in our country after 1950. citizens exists with a Slavic consciousness, which fought on the side of the communists have left at the end of the civil war Greece. They are gone. And all Greek parties (including the orthodox Communist Party) are in agreement for many years that they may never come back again. "

[Onur]

I recognized the name of the German reporter. He lives in Turkey and he gets invited to the Turkish tv programs from time to time.

[damian]

hidden agenda my foot if nobody gave them those predictions unless it was a secret society.

germany has an agenda in the area and im sure she more then willing to give ROM to Bulgaria her historical ally

[Louis]

I don't understand your enthusiasm. I can't see how this is "The beginning of the end of Greece. United, United, United Macedonia".
Martens (who is stationed in Turkey) wrote a similar (more extended) article two years ago in the same newspaper. This is again a Google translation from a Greek translation of that article (from March 2010).


The Sunday edition of the FAZ (Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung) hosts a full-page response from Michael Martens Florina titled "Sometimes observe themselves" and subtitled "The Macedonians minority in northern Greece considers the mistreated - since Athens denies existence, "which refers to the existence of" Macedonians minority. "

Lists the known views Voskopoulos P., Takis Michas, Alexander Josephides and Stefan Troebst, argues that many Slav-speakers in the Florina region continue to avoid talking openly about the roots Slavophone and notes that the refusal of Greece to accept the existence of Macedonian minority is , in the opinion of many, the fear of compensation claims after the Civil War exiles and their heirs.

The Martens, who recently visited Florina, says that although all Greek politicians say there is no Macedonians minority in northern Greece, the president of the party '' Rainbow '(which calls itself the party of (Slavic) Macedonians minority in Greece ) Voskopoulos says a member of this minority, "is strangely real, like his fellow."

The reporter cites statements Voskopoulos, whom she met on the premises of "House Makedonikou Culture" in the center of Florina, which argues that "the Greeks are taught in schools that are direct descendants of the ancient Greeks. We must imagine, ten million Greeks and everyone is great-grandson of Pericles ".

The Voskopoulos also argues that because the party requesting the recognition of minority rights "we as agents are suspicious - as agents of Skopje, NATO or Europe. We then ask how much money we get for our work. So I ask myself, the Greeks, who defended the interests of the Greek minority in Turkey or in Albania, agents are paid from abroad; '.

The Voskopoulos, but accept the designation "agent of Europe," noting that "let us say happy agents of European values and European behavior towards minorities."

The reporter notes that Voskopoulos born in 1964 in Florina, which is among the Slav-speaking Macedonians called Lerin, that the grandmother did not speak Greek, as many of the older "Macedonians" in the province of Macedonia.

Scientists in Greece - writes Martens - stress that some events can not be refuted, stating that "when Greece conquered the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 most of the historic region of Macedonia, many of the new lands inhabited by Greeks not while other Greeks were a minority. This is illustrated by maps of the Ottoman Empire, where villages and towns now have Greek names, then bore Slavic names that sound.

Athens - writes Martens -, to 'hellenized' the broad ethnic mix in the north of the Greek state (and to ward off similar efforts of Bulgaria and Serbia), applied a policy of assimilation, which at times was associated with massive retaliation. Residents said they were direct descendants of Alexander the Great and the Slav-speaking Macedonians were Greeks who simply forgotten over the centuries the Greek roots and acquired a Slavic dialect.

The Martens also mentioned in his book Alexander Josephides "The Slav-speaking Greeks of Macedonia", which recorded that before the Balkan Wars, lived in the area now belongs to Greece 250,000 "Slav-speaking Macedonians", but their number was steadily decreasing.

The Iosifidis support - in the newspaper - that "all institutions such as churches and schools, reminiscent autonomous Slavic or Bulgarian identity, closed or acquired another role."

The renaming of place names took place alongside the mandatory changing of family names and argues that this policy of the Greek state has achieved the opposite of what they wanted, as the measures of repression "alienated many more Slav-speaking Macedonians by the Greek state," writes Iosifidis .

It is therefore not - Martens writes - curious that the Slavic population in Northern Greece joined the communist camp during the civil war. Can the ideology of the Communists were to foreign-writes-but the communists gave them - especially in the last phase of the civil war - various promises.


The historian Stefan Toebst notes that "in March 1949 the Greeks declared that Communists were willing to cede parts of Greece inhabited by the Slav-speaking Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was established in 1945, should become an autonomous state." Many of them believed they deserved to fight for it, but after the defeat of the communists have paid dearly and were forced to flee their homeland.

As the Martens «winners deprived them Greek citizenship and their belongings were lost. Of the remaining 41,000 respondents only dared to aftocharaktiristoun "Slav-speaking" in the 1951 census. The actual number was, however, careful calculations according to historians, at least three times greater. "

After accession to the EEC in 1981, many IDPs back awakened hope.


Indeed, the socialist government of Andreas Papandreou granted amnesty in December 1982, under which allowed political refugees of the civil war to regain their citizenship. The Slav-speaking Macedonians explicitly excluded from this provision and remain blocked until today.


"In fact this can be found for many the real reason for the stubborn refusal of Athens to officially recognize the existence of Macedonians minority," says Martens, and sets the terms entrepreneur - "Slav Macedonians in origin, Greek name and a resident of Germany" - the who wants to remain anonymous, that "we do not actually contrasting visions of history, but for fear that there will be a wave of complaints from displaced six decades and their descendants."

Similar visual has - according to the FAZ-the Athenian publicist Takis Michas, who is considered "marginal" because of his views and opposing the war policy of Greece. The Michas argues that 'the Ordinance discriminate against this group because of their ethnic origin. The Greeks with Greek origins can through this (amnesty) to claim their property to reacquire the citizenship, not Macedonians. It is shameful for a European country to maintain such measures. "


He also argues that Athens should stop the "hide strange", and "the existence or nonexistence of Macedonians minority is mainly scientific and not political. The Greek government should establish a committee of independent wise to explore this very complex issue. "

The controversy, says Martens, comes to the question "what is a minority," "that formed the consciousness of the minority, that is changing and how it can be misused its meaning." The Voskopoulos and members of his party strongly opposed efforts to approach the nationalists of Skopje, the neighboring "Macedonia" as the purpose of "Rainbow" is, and will remain, only the recognition of minority Macedonians in Greece.

Also it is unclear exactly what language they speak "Slav citizens of Greece." Many of the Slav-speaking Greek citizens would now appear to speak the local dialect, however, remains controversial whether this is the "Macedonians" - as there are differences in language from one village to another.

Besides many states, at least publicly, that they are Greeks and keep distance from Voskopoulos Paul and his party, which won elections in a few thousand votes in the villages of Florina but not an influential political force in the region. As he says "there are many people who speak Macedonia but claim to be Greeks, because they are terrified and are afraid of the consequences to them or their children."

"The question that today in the villages people speak the language without fear even in public, at bus stops or cafes? The Voskopoulos-who works as an architect in the Prefecture of Florina and therefore does not address, at least officially-exclusion recognizes that the situation has improved significantly and that "the times when the police eformouse Makedonika villages have passed." "But many people are cautious because there are always subtle methods to exert pressure on anyone." He claims that "many villages, who voted for 'Rainbow' in the elections, threatened with deprivation of government investment. This frightened the people. "

The Martens notes that the guest of Florina can start a conversation with a "native born Greek", but after a few glasses of retsina, end up talking to someone whose native language is the "Macedonians" and he is not sure of identity, particularly stressing that entrepreneurs often do not dare to aftocharaktiristoun as "Macedonians".

Referring finally to reject the application submitted by the Voskopoulos to regain the Slavic name of his parents, he notes that it intends to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, in order - writes Martens - finally learn whether or not there.

[George S.]

maybe they can do that if were in the eu.I think pretty soon germany will feel the effects of all the eu countries that are in debt.That will be the start of self implosion.

[Louis]

Lastly this is an interview on the name dispute Martens took from Bakoyianni in 2008. (Google translation from Greek)


With surtitles "Conversation with the Foreign Minister of Greece, Bakoyannis'" The anachronism of Skopje fomenting tensions "and subtitled" The Foreign Minister of Greece Dora Bakoyannis reasons why Athens is opposite to the call of Macedonia to join NATO next week, "the G / F Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung published an interview with Ms. Bakoyannis with journalist Michael Martens.




Journalist: Greece is threatening to block the inclusion of the northern neighbor of NATO. There is the possibility of a compromise that would allow the "Macedonia" to join NATO under its constitutional name?


Ms. Bakoyannis: A compromise is just that, on which we work. We are talking about the geographical region called Macedonia, which is located in the heart of the Balkans is a very sensitive area burdened by history. The name "Macedonia" is not exclusively associated with a particular country. I always used to describe a larger geographical area, from which about 51% belongs to Greece, in Macedonia 38% and 9% in Bulgaria. What it says is that Greece is the monopolization of the name "Macedonia" by a single state does not contribute to regional stability and therefore should be taken into account the geographical reality. This is reflected in two decisions of the Security Council of the United Nations and one of the General Assembly. We push our friends in Skopje to come together here in a long and late, accepted by both sides, a solution of a compound name, which will include the geographical term "Macedonia", but also makes clear the separation of wider geographic area.


Reporter: After meeting with you in Athens, the Secretary General of NATO, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, said that while Greece has the right to oppose the inclusion of a new member of the Alliance for the Member does not exist "(legal) right inclusion ". You have the impression that the other member countries of NATO will support Greece on this issue?


Ms. Bakoyannis: No doubt. Greece has always been a reliable and constant supporter of the Euro-Atlantic perspective of neighboring states. At the NATO summit in Bucharest will assert with great pleasure the invitation for Croatia and Albania. In previous rounds of enlargement, the Alliance has always insisted insistence that candidate countries must meet the criterion of good neighborly relations. Also, NATO has consistently promoted the full normalization of relations not only between the candidates, but also to neighboring third countries, which were not members of the Alliance. But now wants to join a country without resolving an existing problem, which undermines the relations of good neighborliness, which negatively affects its relations with an old ally, who is a member of NATO for more than half a century.


Journalist: The UN mediator, Nimetz, has made several proposals, including "Upper Macedonia", and "New Macedonia". Accepted these proposals from Greece?


Ms. Bakoyannis: The negotiations are not completed yet. Greece is participating constructively in these open. We have shown great flexibility in seeking a solution from which they can gain both sides. The Greek government has traveled from its own two-thirds of the distance and we hope that now our friends from Skopje will meet us somewhere. The names mentioned may be the basis for discussions.


Journalist: The Foreign Minister of Macedonia, Milososki, saying that according to Greek logic and Belgium can ask Luxembourg to change its name, since there is a Belgian province called Luxembourg.

Ms. Bakoyannis: Is Luxembourg argues that a portion of its territory is under Belgian occupation? Do textbooks contain maps of Luxembourg about one more kind motherland, which includes parts of neighboring states? In previous years, most recently skyrocketed from Skopje such fireworks. Consciously decided not to answer. What matters is not the exchange of rhetorical hot air to be present for 24 hours in a good public image of our country. These simplifications enable us to proceed. We need a pragmatic solution to a very real problem.


Journalist: Some politicians in Athens say that Skopje has irredentist goals against the Greek province of Macedonia. There are specific examples of this attitude attributed to Skopje?


Ms. Bakoyannis: There are serious and widespread examples. Just weeks ago, Prime Minister Gruevski was photographed while testified wreath on a monument, which was called a map of Greater Macedonia, which included a substantial part of Greece to Thessaloniki and the Aegean. Such anachronistic exercises, to use a mildly-rekindle tensions and distrust in our relations. Something similar may serve political objectives to gain half a century ago, in the era of the Cold War, but has no place in modern Europe. Something even more, contrary to the just our intent to make the Southeastern Europe example of peaceful coexistence and prosperity between various nations.


This is not a battle, but to negotiate. It is not about victory or defeat, glory or humiliation. This is a compromise, by which they can win both sides. The people in Macedonia can profit from the agreement with Greece in order to leave behind this bitter problem. Greece is the largest foreign investor and one of the largest trading partners. The Greek economy has created more than 20,000 jobs in the neighboring country. Politically, Greece can and must be a natural ally and the most trusted supporter of Macedonia. We must focus on issues that unite us rather than those which divide us.

[George S.]

much of this is just sheer speculation as greece got nothing to fear of macedonian irrendist claims .What greece has got 500k soldiers & macedonia 7k soldiers.Also it's in their cinstitution that macedonia can't offend only defend who is kidding who here.Also GUEVSKi has allready CAPITULATED on the NAME ROM (skopje) greece said no.
The rest of the artoicle JUST BS about how MACEDONIA is this or that which is BS journalism.THe hard facts speak volumes macedonia through it's stupidity has allready compromised & capitulated as well.

[Zakynthian]

500,000 soldiers??? wow, I'm really surprised. Even me didn't knew Greece is such a power.
What are you talking about George??? Where exactly you have got those numbers?