Slavization of the Balkans

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    #16
    Serbian historian Tibor Zivkovic: Slavs made up 2 percent to 3 percent of the population, the rest were natives.

    Srpski istoričar Tibor Živković govori o 1,2, najviše 3% Slovena, a da su sve ostalo starosjedioci.

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    • maco2envy
      Member
      • Jan 2015
      • 288

      #17
      Is there anything out there that explains what types of geographical regions Slavic tribes preferred to settle in? If they were as dominate and numerous as the slavic migration theory makes them out to be, you'd think they would prefer to settle in lush valleys and fertile plains rather than remote mountains.

      I know the turkic tribes generally settled in plains because of their horse breeding culture.

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      • Stefan of Pelagonia
        Junior Member
        • Oct 2016
        • 7

        #18
        Originally posted by maco2envy View Post
        Is there anything out there that explains what types of geographical regions Slavic tribes preferred to settle in? If they were as dominate and numerous as the slavic migration theory makes them out to be, you'd think they would prefer to settle in lush valleys and fertile plains rather than remote mountains.

        I know the turkic tribes generally settled in plains because of their horse breeding culture.
        They were not numerous at all. They were small clans that established many little states across the balkan in which they were the ruling elite, with slavic becoming the language of administration, thus being spread to the locals, which were the absolute majority.

        Balkan historians are gradually accepting this.
        Some of them, not wanting to lose the claim on Macedonian land, started arguing that the ancient Macedonians were Thracians / Illyrians. Luckily archaeology and onomastics prove them wrong. The only thing they rely on being the words of a few ancient greek historians who didn't know much about, and were not interested in, ''barbarian'' nations in the first place.

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        • Redsun
          Member
          • Jul 2013
          • 409

          #19
          Atlas of world history, volume one.
          Hermann Kinder and Werner Hilgemann

          The Slavs (Slovene from slovo = the word), a major branch of the Indo-European family of peoples, originally lived in the Pripet Marches. The area settled by Slavs later included parts of Poland, White Russia and the Ukraine. During the early centuries the history of the Slavs was connected with that of the Germans (Goths), Huns, Alani and Turkomans, with whom the Slavs often entered into mutually fruitful relationships (=symbiosis). Pliny the elder, Tacitus and the geographer Ptolemy called them Venedi or Veneti; the Germans called them Wenden; from the 6th century Byzantine writers (Procopius and Jordanes) spoke of the Sklavenoi, placing them along the Lower Danube, but also in the eastern Alps. From 600, Slavic peoples (Abodrites, Sorbs, Veneti and Pomerani) settled east of the Elbe in the areas vacated by Germanic tribes. As with the Czechs, their historical record becomes verifiable only in the Carolingian period (805, construction by Charlemagne of the limes sorbicus = line of the easternmost Frankish trade settlements).

          Grouping of Slavic tribes: t
          he east Slavs (Russians later subdivided into Ukrainians, White and Great Russians), west Slavs (Pols, Pomerani, Abodrites, Sorbs, Czechs and Slovaks), and south Slavs (Slovenes, Serbs, Croats and Bulgars). The unity of the Slavic world was disrupted by Germanic colonization in the Danubian area and the Eastern Alps after the destruction the Avar kingdom, and by the migration of the Magyars to the Hungarian plain c. 900 (owing to pressure from the east by the Patzinaks): separation of the west Slavs in the north from the south Slavs.

          Society: originally the Slavs lived in clans (reverence of ancestors), consisting of large familial communities. Several of these familial communities made up larger social units led by elders. These again made up the tribe with its military organization (the century as the basic unit of the levy, then the millennium) and its common religious culture. The leaders of the familial communities gradually developed into an aristocratic upper class. The particularism of the tribes prevented the establishment of any great power status for the Slavs. Titles of rulers used in later times were borrowed from other languages: kunedzi (prince) was Germanic (king); Korlji (Czech Kral) was derived from the name Charlemagne; the title of Tsar from the Roman Caesar.

          Economic Life: the Slavs occupied themselves with farming, hunting, fishing, the raising of domestic animals and bee-culture in the extended areas of their settlement. There were also – predominantly living in the towns – artisans (specialist): carpenters, weavers, potters, tanners and furriers. Active trading developed along the rivers. Raw materials (honey, wax, furs) were exchanged for textiles, weapons, utensils, jewellery, gold and silver. The Jews, Germans and Greeks at first monopolized trade; the Slavs themselves did so later. The trading centres of the east Slavs became towns.

          Religion: historical sources speak of names and images of gods, of the temples of the west Slavs (the temple of Arkona on the island of Rugen, the shrine of the god Triglaw at Stettin and that of Svaricic at Rethra), of tree cultures and oracles. The use of amulets and symbols indicates contacts with the Iranians and Turkomans. The east Slavs knew the God of Thunder and Lightning, Perun. The supreme deity of the ancient Slavs was Svarog, an early God of the Heavens and Thunder. The Slavs of the Havel area worshipped Dazbag (God of the Sun) and Jarovit (God of Spring). Within the familial communities the fertility gods Rod and Rozanicy were worshipped. All tribes worshiped nature.

          The christianization of the Slavs began with the advance of Roman and Byzantine civilization into Eastern and Central Europe: during the 6th century missionary activity from Aquileia among the Croats; during the 8th century from Salzburg among the Slovenes. Missionary activity among the Wends, the Czechs (from Regensburg), the Abodrites and Elbe Slavs (from Verden at the Aller) was initiated during the reign of Charlemagne. The Slavs joined the Eastern Church c. 850. The Apostles of the Slavs, Cyril and Methodius, conducted missionary activity within the Greater Moravian Kingdom from 863; they later joined Rome.
          864-5 Conversion of the Bulgars (1st autocephalous Eastern Church).
          866 Christianization of groups of the Rus.
          948 Establishment of the bishoprics of Havelberg, Brandenburg and Oldenburg.
          966 Baptism of duke Miezko of Poland.
          968 Establishment of the archbishopric of Magdeburg with the suffragan bishoprics of Meissen, Merseburg and Zeitz (moved to Naumburg in 1032) by Otto I (intended to bring about the conversion of the Elbe Slavs).
          973 Establishment of the bishopric of Prague.
          983 Suppression of Christian missionary activity during the rebellion of the Slavs (Havelberg, Brandenburg).
          988 Baptism of the Varangian Prince Vladimir.
          1000 Establishment of the archbishopric of Gnesen.
          1001 Establishment of the archbishopric of Gran (Esztergom). With the establishment of this archbishopric the Polish and Hungarian churches freed of Germanic influence.

          All Slavic states attempted to establish auto-nomous churches (autocephalous bishoporic or patriarchate). The Slavic language, based on a Macedonian Dialect, became the language of the Slavic churches and the written language of the Balkan and East Slavs With their acceptance into the community of Christian peoples, the Slavs reached a higher cultural level; the new common faith of the developing Slavic states also contributed to the fusion of the heterogeneous ethnic and cultural elements. Despite their split into Raman Catholic (west Slavs) and Greek Orthodox (East Slavs) states, both groups were part of the European civilization by virtue of their Christianity.
          Last edited by Redsun; 04-04-2017, 05:40 AM.

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          • maco2envy
            Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 288

            #20
            Distribution of R1a in Europe:



            History and description of Haplogroup R1a (Y-chromosomal DNA) and its subclades. Haplogroup R1a is the dominant paternal lineage in Northeast Europe and southern Central Asia. It was diffused around Eurasia by the Indo-Aryans and Balto-Slavic people.


            More haplogroups of interest:

            History and description of Haplogroup I2 (Y-chromosomal DNA) and its subclades. Haplogroup I2 is continental Europe's largest Mesolithic paternal lineage. It is common among Slavic and Germanic people.


            History and description of Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-chromosomal DNA) and its subclades. Haplogroup E1b1b is the main paternal lineage of North Africa. It is linked to the diffusion of Afro-Asiatic languages and of Neolithic farmers from the Near East and the Balkans.
            Last edited by maco2envy; 04-05-2017, 02:32 AM. Reason: addition of a few relevant links

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            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              #21


              Vlach katuns in medieval Herzegovina

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              • Solun
                Member
                • Sep 2012
                • 166

                #22
                Article in today's Dnevnik referring to 'new' IGENEA research showing Macedonians are 4% related to Slavs and 30% related to the 'indigenous ancient' population

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                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  #23











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                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    #24
                    Book review: ''Esad Kurtovic, The Bobani Vlachs''; Dubrovnik Annals 18 (2014),

                    URL:


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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      #25
                      The End of the Ancient World, By Ferdinand Lot - Pg. 273:

                      "Further, Latin Illyria, thirty years after Justinian's death, was submerged by the Slavs, and the fragments of the Illyrian populations who still spoke the lingua Romana, whence sprang Vlak, the Roumanian-Macedonian language, were reduced to wandering shepherds or else pushed back towards the coast. The coast towns, Durazzo, Spalato-Salona, and Ragusa, up to the fifteenth century, kept the use of a language sprung from Latin and later from Venetian."

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                      • tchaiku
                        Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 786

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                        All I know is that R1a is the “Polish-Russian” haplogroup.

                        The overall percentage in Greece is correct (around 9%) but the coloring of local areas is problematic. It is statistically impossible to have 23% in Rethymno, 20% in Lasithi and 0% in Heraclion, especially since Heraclion (like Athens) attracts population from everywhere. Scientists should take a deeper look at this. I see the potential for a huge discovery. Maybe there’s a germ over there that’s killing the R1a gene.
                        R1a is also linked with earlier civilizations from as early as Bronze Age.

                        However, almost all the I2a2 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a2 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

                        34% of I2a2+R1a for northern Greece, so maybe about 40-45% in total Slavic admixture. Just a bit less than Bulgaria and Macedonia. It's true that Heraclides 2017's paper on Cyprus gives 39% of I2+R1a for Greek Thrace.

                        In contrast, I2a2+R1a is 16% in Crete, 13% in the Cyclades, and only 6.5% among Greek Cypriots.

                        Frequency tables showing the percentage for each Y-DNA haplogroup by country and region in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.
                        Last edited by tchaiku; 10-26-2017, 11:47 AM. Reason: I2a2 mistaken for I2a1

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                        • maco2envy
                          Member
                          • Jan 2015
                          • 288

                          #27
                          It's important not to forget that Y-DNA is paternally inherited (i.e from the father) therefore it is more biased for indicating invader ancestry. Mitochondrial DNA has a similar flaw being that it is only maternally inherited, that being paired with the fact that historically women typically intermixed more than men, also points to flaws with using mtDNA in this regard.

                          For these reasons along with others, people generally think it is the best to go with autosomal DNA, which at this stage its best purpose would be PCA (Principle Compenent Analysis) to determine which nations genetically 'cluster' together. For example:



                          But it seems that some Balkan countries at this stage still have poor sample sizes, such as Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria:
                          Frequency tables showing the percentage for each HLA type by country and region in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.

                          Frequency tables showing the percentage for each HLA type by country and region in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.


                          Also Greece, while having a large sample size, is not partitioned into north, central, ect unlike with the Y-DNA studies. Therefore at this stage, I wouldn't take this autosomal stuff for the Balkans too seriously. In the future I think we may get interesting results as the sample sizes increase and if Greece has regional based data (don't think it would for obvious reasons)

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                          • tchaiku
                            Member
                            • Nov 2016
                            • 786

                            #28
                            Albanians flooded the Peloponnese with their whole families after the Black Death wiped about the half (or more) of Peloponnese population. They had like 30,000 men of army in 15th century.
                            Ev-13 peaks in Peloponnese and in Albanians (similar sub-haplogroups too). Slavs who ruled Peloponnese for 218 were predominately I2a2 and R1a, Mycenaeans were enriched with J2a (J2 in Peloponnese is J2b, again similar to Albanians) and other Anatolian haplogroups. The only ones which we have no information are the Dorians.

                            Ancient DNA of Athens, Sparta, Thebes with clarify a lot for Ionians, Dorians and Aeolians.
                            Last edited by tchaiku; 10-30-2017, 01:40 AM.

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                            • tchaiku
                              Member
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 786

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Stefan of Pelagonia
                              It is just a 2.5% difference. And it depends on the composition.

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                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                #30

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