Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • maco2envy
    Member
    • Jan 2015
    • 288

    Not to mention the Greek trolls that plague the site. Given the site actually moderates comments, they still allow anti-Macedonian comments to get through.

    Comment

    • Starling
      Member
      • Sep 2017
      • 153

      Greek trolls plague every site. They're a literal infestation.

      Comment

      • Stojacanec
        Member
        • Dec 2009
        • 809

        while the two main Macedonian parties gobble amongst themselves, the country's name and Albanian rights are changing right under their noses.

        No point in waking up when its too late, you might as well go back to sleep.

        there is nothing temporary about change, look at our flag and the acronym...

        Comment

        • maco2envy
          Member
          • Jan 2015
          • 288

          Seems like there are reports that the name "New Macedonia" are being discussed. I'm against any name change, but this is definitely the worst one from the bunch.

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Originally posted by maco2envy View Post
            Seems like there are reports that the name "New Macedonia" are being discussed. I'm against any name change, but this is definitely the worst one from the bunch.
            Actually, it isn't bad.
            And I like the new flag as well.
            And apparently, in Ancient Pelasgian times there was a region that was pretty much the region of modern Macedonia called New Macedonia.
            And someone found an ancient rock that said it.
            And New Macedonian soldiers will have fought under this name soon enough.
            And some old Macedonians will remain defiant and insist on being called FYROM because people have fought under that name also.
            And we will soon hear all of this by the Fyromians.

            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Starling
              Member
              • Sep 2017
              • 153

              Can we just spam the MHRMI images on social media until people give a damn?









              Bonus:

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                No one will care, unfortunately. Unlike in the west, where people generally have problems with being aware of a problem, Macedonians are fully aware, they just don't care. We need to tie these issues to other things they actually care about, as stand alone issues, they have no weight.

                Originally posted by Starling View Post
                Can we just spam the MHRMI images on social media until people give a damn?









                Bonus:

                Comment

                • Amphipolis
                  Banned
                  • Aug 2014
                  • 1328

                  There's a lot of political activity lately in Greece. Regarding an agreement (on North or Upper Macedonia, New Macedonia was rejected) the positions of political leaders is as follows:

                  Tsipras: Clear YES
                  Mitsotakis: Probably YES*
                  Michaloliakos: Clear NO
                  Gennimata/Theodorakis: YES/Clear YES (the two parties were recently unified)
                  Koutsoumbas: Clear YES
                  Kammenos: Clear NO
                  Leventis: Clear NO

                  *What's interesting and critical is the position of New Democracy. Mitsotakis is as moderate as his father or his sister, but the stance of Samaras is unclear.

                  Also, we should wait and see if Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) would allow a Parliamentary majority against their position or the Government will collapse.

                  In both cases things suggest that we may not have an agreement or that we will have a referendum, especially if there's one on the other side. Letting the people decide is always a diplomatic solution.



                  =
                  Last edited by Amphipolis; 01-11-2018, 10:29 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Gocka
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2012
                    • 2306

                    Name Change Agreed to between Greece and Macedonia

                    I haven't seen anyone comment yet, I can only assume the news hasn't filtered its way down yet or its not true.

                    Various outlets have reported that Macedonia and Greece have reached an agreement on the name "issue". Bujar Osmani, the Deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs, was just in Greece these past few days and apparently it was negotiated that Macedonia and Greece agreed to either New Macedonia, or Vardar Macedonia. It was also reported that they agreed to not hold referendums in their respective countries.

                    So we sent a shiptar to decide what Macedonia's identity should be, Bravo Macedonia, bravo.

                    Can anyone confirm this? Macedonian media seems quiet on the issue.





                    Last edited by Gocka; 01-10-2018, 06:09 PM.

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      This is what Osmani said today. He has names, but doesn't want to disclose them (google translation of meta.mk article...link below)

                      There is a consensus, the word Macedonia to have in any variant in resolving the name dispute, Greece accepts it, but we still do not have to enter that debate, said Deputy Prime Minister for European Affairs Bujar Osmani in the evening's TV show "24 "After his return from Athens and meetings with Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kodzias and the Deputy Foreign Minister in charge of European Affairs and International Economic Relations of Greece, George Katrugalos.

                      He added that there were talk of possible variants of the name, but as he said "it will not help the process if it is publicly auctioned with them because they are not yet matured."

                      - Some of the proposals need to be sufficiently matured, in order to withstand the pressure of the public. I can not get into details because I will not help the process. We are trying to find an acceptable solution that does not have to hit the most sensitive values ​​of the two countries - said Osmani.

                      He added that resolving the problem is a complex process, but sees the will of both governments to overcome pressures on a daily political basis and find a solution.

                      - We are trying to break all the aspects of the issue. This issue has a rational core, but many emotional layers have been laid over it over the years, which should be removed - Osmani added.

                      Comment

                      • Tomche Makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 1123



                        Macedonia says new push underway to resolve naming dispute with Greece

                        The Republic of Macedonia’s deputy prime minister for European affairs said on Tuesday that a new push was underway to settle a 25-year-old dispute with Greece over the country’s name.

                        After a meeting with Greek foreign minister Nikos Kotzias in Athens, Bujar Osmani said both sides were committed to resolve the issue within six months.

                        They have already agreed that Macedonia, known internationally as Fyrom (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), should adopt a “composite” name.

                        According to diplomats, this would most likely be either “New Macedonia” or, in a geographical reference, Vardarska Macedonia. The use of a composite name would avoid confusion with Greece’s own region of Macedonia.

                        Prospects for solving the name issue improved after a moderate government took office in Macedonia following elections last year.

                        If a deal is reached, Greece will drop its veto of Macedonia’s membership of Nato and the start of EU accession talks by its neighbour.

                        “2018 is a golden year of opportunity for our country to make progress with Euro-Atlantic integration…That is why we are committed to finding a solution,” Mr Osmani said after the talks.

                        The two sides are due to hold formal talks with Matthew Nimetz, a UN mediator, in New York January 17-19.

                        Dimitris Tzannacopoulos, the Greek government spokesman, said both countries wanted to “create the widest possible consensus to put behind us a problem that has burdened us and the wider region for the past 25 years.

                        ”Macedonia agreed in 1995 that it would be known internationally as “Fyrom” as a temporary measure until a deal on a name acceptable to Greece was reached.

                        Successive Greek governments, under pressure from nationalist and far-right political factions, blocked the country’s attempts to join Nato and the EU on grounds that its name implied a territorial claim on Greek Macedonia
                        Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 01-10-2018, 07:59 PM.
                        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          - Some of the proposals need to be sufficiently matured, in order to withstand the pressure of the public.
                          Wouldn't want to pressurise the public would we.

                          The problem with Fyromians is that they think Albanians act in Macedonia's interest.

                          If only Macedonians were able to make decisions there.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            Macedonia and Greece have been quarreling for more than a quarter of a century about what the former should be called.


                            Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

                            LONDON — What's in a name? For the uneasy European neighbors of Macedonia and Greece, quite a lot actually.

                            In one of the strangest international disputes still playing out on the world stage, these two countries have been quarreling for more than a quarter of a century about what Macedonia should be called.

                            It's not just symbolic: The dispute has seen Greece block Macedonia's potential accession to NATO and the European Union, as well as imposing a brief but crippling trade embargo in the mid-1990s.

                            Some analysts even claim this perpetual state of limbo could create opportunities for further Russian meddling on Europe's southeastern flank.

                            This week has given hope, however, to a possible thaw in this long-running impasse.

                            Both governments agreed to renew efforts to find a solution Tuesday, and a fresh round of discussions with a United Nations mediator are due to begin later this month.

                            This came after Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev suggested Sunday that a final compromise could come within the next six months, according to Reuters.

                            "I'm the most optimistic I've been for many years," according to Jonathan Eyal, the international director at the London-based Royal United Services Institute think tank, who has acted as an E.U. adviser on the former Yugoslav states. "The question is whether they will pluck up the courage to finally do it."

                            Loggerheads

                            The argument dates to 1991, when Macedonia broke away from the fragmenting socialist federation of Yugoslavia and chose its official name.

                            Greece vehemently objected, saying "Macedonia" was a Greek word dating to an ancient kingdom of the same name. It also pointed to its own northern region of Macedonia and the millions of ethnic Greeks who live there and regard themselves as Macedonians.

                            Its fledgling neighbor disagreed, citing its own historical precedent, and the two countries have been at loggerheads since.

                            One of the key figures at the center of all this is no modern politician but a towering figure of the ancient world. Both countries claim historical ties to Alexander the Great, the ruler whose military campaigns redrew vast swathes of the world map 2,300 years ago.

                            What's changed now is that Greece's government, led by the left-wing party Syriza, does not share the nationalist or patriotic tendencies of previous administrations.

                            With Syriza's future uncertain ahead of elections next year, politicians in Macedonia may believe that the window of compromise is about to slam shut, Eyal said.

                            An emerging possibility is that some sort of qualifier — such as "Nova Macedonia," meaning "New Macedonia" — could be adopted. Since a 1995 accord, the country has been referred to as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, or FYROM, at the United Nations.

                            The dispute has hurt Macedonia not only economically and internationally but also stunted its fledgling development in other areas, according to Biljana Vankovska, a professor at the University of Skopje, in Macedonia's capital.

                            The trade embargo of the 1990s had "huge economic consequences for the already devastated country," according to Vankovska, and she said it also created an ideal environment for "burgeoning organized crime, smuggling, and gray economy in general."

                            The Macedonian government claims most of its people would favor a solution that would allow them to enter into NATO and the E.U. But Vankovska is skeptical.

                            "The overwhelming majority of ethnic Macedonians ... are not willing to trade with their identity for any foreign-policy reward," she said.

                            One section of the population who may be open to the idea are the 25 percent who identify as ethnic Albanians, Vankovska added. Albania, the country, is already in NATO, and membership for Macedonia would be a unifying force for the region's diaspora.

                            'Suspended animation'

                            The ripples of this nomenclature feud have been felt beyond the borders of Macedonia, a landlocked country of around 2 million people that's the size of New Hampshire.

                            Macedonia has sent troops to support the U.S.-led wars in Iran and Afghanistan, but NATO says it must resolve its dispute with Greece before it can formally join.

                            Officials in the tiny country, as well as some Western analysts, have suggested that its lack of formal membership puts it under threat from meddling by Moscow.

                            Montenegro, another former Yugoslav state to the north, claimed that in 2016 a group of Serb and Russian nationalists attempted a coup to sabotage its imminent NATO membership. The Kremlin denies involvement in the alleged plot.

                            Some, such as Vankovska, feel that such worries are overblown and calls them a "cheap political trick" by Macedonia's government. But others, like Eyal at RUSI, do see danger in having states like Macedonia in what he calls "suspended animation" — neither allied with Russia nor the West.

                            "The key objective is to try to maintain stability in what remains one of Europe's least stable countries and to try to stop Russians causing mischief like they did when Montenegro tried to join NATO," he said. "There's no question that the Russians are interested in the region
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              EDITED


                              Same old bullshit
                              Last edited by Risto the Great; 01-11-2018, 01:50 AM.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Tomche Makedonche
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2011
                                • 1123

                                Reports on possible names secretly agreed to between diplomats and politicians have been flying around since Zajko got into power, so until something official has been released by either government, I would take any of these reported proposals with a grain of salt.

                                What I think has some merit though is the recent notion of seeking to remove the choice from the public (which has been implied in some of the recent statements reported by the media).

                                I think both countries are now aiming to make sure any proposal doesn't go to a referendum but is decided by parliament (which is contrary to the stance both SDS and DPNE have historically expressed)
                                “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                                Comment

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