Marko of Prilep, King of the Christians

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  • Sarafot
    Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 616

    #46
    I tray but i cant,The book title is Grbovite na Makedonija-dr.Aleksandar Matkovski,page 38-39,44-51,i scaned it by i cant upload them there,i can do it on Wiki,but they will baned me if i do that(copright),i registrate my self on adrese you gave me,but no message back to my mail.

    Here it is writen VUK OBRADOVIČ and Volkašin Mrnjavčevič....
    Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
    - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #47
      Sorry bate, my mistake, go to the following link:

      Unlimited space to host images, easy to use image uploader, albums, photo hosting, sharing, dynamic image resizing on web and mobile.



      From here, go to browse, choose the pic, and then upload. When you have done that select the 'Hotlink for forum 1' link and paste it here on the forum. It should work. This book sounds very interesting, I think I have seen bits and pieces of it on the net, but nothing extensive.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Sarafot
        Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 616

        #48






        Last edited by Sarafot; 12-28-2008, 06:11 AM.
        Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
        - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #49
          Here is some more information about King Marko, his father Volkasin and uncle Uglesha, provided by the Serbian writer George Ostrogorski, in his 'History of the Byzantine State'. (In the brackets are my comments):

          Pages 540-541

          John V (East Roman Emperor) had failed to get help, but the urgency of his need was brought home by another devastating Turkish victory. After the establishment of the Ottomans in Thrace, Macedonia seemed the most seriously threatened province. The despot John Uglesha who ruled Serres was the first 'to take up arms against the godless Muslims'. He wished to organize a greater counter-offensive against the conqueror and he called on Byzantium to join 'the common struggle against the common enemy'. He went so far as to meet the Byzantines by condemning in the strongest terms the elevation of Dushan to the rank of Emperor and the setting up of the Serbian patriarchate, and by recognizing the jurisdiction of the patriarchate of Constantinople within his own territory. Nevertheless, only his brother, king Vukashin, joined him. The brothers led their army against Adrianople and clashed with the enemy at Chernomen at on the Maritsa. Here their forces were destroyed by the Turks on the 26 September 1371. Both Uglesha and Vukashin were killed and thus the two strongest personalities of the time in the Balkans disappeared from the scene. After this catastrophe Macedonia lost its independence. the local princes, including Vukashin's son, Kraljevich Marko, the hero of the Serbian (and Macedonian) folk-songs, had to recognize the suzerainty of the Sultan and pledge themselves to pay tribute and perform military service..........................
          Although Ostrogorski is of the view that Volkasin, Uglesha and Marko could only be Serbs, being a Serb himself, he cannot look past the fact that Macedonia constituted an entity of its own during this time under the two brothers. Furthermore, he refers to an incident which re-inforces the scene of animosity between the Macedonian south and the Serbian north, when Uglesha spoke to the East Romans about the wrongs of Dushan and of unity against the Turks.

          Another point is the reference to Marko (of Prilep in Macedonia) being the hero of Serbian folk-songs while conveniently avoiding to make reference of Marko in the literature and historical memory of the Macedonians. Further to this point, King Marko and his family were anti-Nemanjich therefore against the Serbian royalty and people of Serbian-populated territories, so given the significance attributed to Stefan Dushan and the Nemanjich family where it concern the history of the Serbs as a nation, King Marko is more a villian than a hero in actual Serbian history.

          Page 551

          In fulfilment of their obligation as vassals, a number of Christians fought on the side of the Ottomans, including the Serbian prince Stephen Lazarevich, son and heir of the hero of Kosovo, Vukashin's son Marko who ruled a small area round Prilep, and Constantine Dragash, the father-in-law of Manuel II who governed eastern Macedonia. King Marko and Constantine Dragash were killed in the battle.
          The 'hero' of Serbian folk-songs is the ruler of a mere 'small area' around Prilep? Ostrogorski's attempts to minimize the significance of King Marko's area of power cannot be backed up by facts in this case, as the history of the people, churches and literature in Macedonia say otherwise, proving that King Marko's domains and sphere of influence stretched far beyond the Macedonian city of Prilep.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #50
            Brief excerpt of a song about King Marko, recorded by the Miladinov brothers in Macedonia during the early 1860's.

            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Sarafot
              Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 616

              #51
              Here are some sources if you would like to chek them SoM:
              -Solovejev:Zastava Stefana Dušana nad Skopljem,god 1339,GSND,Skopje1929
              -Jireček:Istorija Srba II
              -Stjepan Antoljak:Pomošni istorski nauki,Skopje,1966
              Mihajlo Dinić-Relja Ohmučevič.zbornik radova Visntiološkog instituta,Beograd,1966
              -About Relja tray,Relja Krilatica,HRelja Ohmučevič-Otađbina,
              .....ask for much more?
              Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
              - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #52
                Slovak,

                The name of Marko's grandfather is recorded by some writers as Mrnjava, but his name when formalised in Serbian is Mrnjavchevich, and not simply Mrnjavich.

                Is it common in the Illyrian dialects for the suffix of CHE to be present? If Mrnjava was a Macedonian name, saying Mrnjavche would be quite common, as in other names such as Donche (Done), Borche (Boris), Stevche (Stevan), etc.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #53
                  Bump.

                  Slovak, can you help us with the above? Is 'che' common in Serbian and/or Croatian?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Sarafot View Post
                    Here are some sources if you would like to chek them SoM:
                    -Solovejev:Zastava Stefana Dušana nad Skopljem,god 1339,GSND,Skopje1929
                    -Jireček:Istorija Srba II
                    -Stjepan Antoljak:Pomošni istorski nauki,Skopje,1966
                    Mihajlo Dinić-Relja Ohmučevič.zbornik radova Visntiološkog instituta,Beograd,1966
                    -About Relja tray,Relja Krilatica,HRelja Ohmučevič-Otađbina,
                    .....ask for much more?
                    Sarafot, if you are still with us can you post the texts of any of the sources that you cite above? Apologies for the late request.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • osiris
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1969

                      #55
                      i like the che suffix somche

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #56
                        The 'che' suffix may be used in one variant or another among other Slavic languages, but it is most common and distinctive in Macedonian, for a range of nouns. This is why I wanted to see how contemporary documents refer to Marko and that of his ancestry from Bosnia. Was it only in use for Mrnjavche after Volkasin's move to Macedonia, or before that?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • indigen
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 1558

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          If you can find the book and scan some pages to post here it would be great.

                          I am not sure about how significant the legend and legacy of King Marko is with all Macedonians, even though he ruled nearly all of Macedonia. I know in my family we were told stories about him, and he is rightfully considered as a king of Macedonia and consequently 'ours'. The 19th century Macedonian writer Kuzman Shapkarev said that his father (or grandfather) told him stories about our history consisting mainly of two characters, Alexander the Great and King Marko.
                          I hope the following excerpt from Academic B.R. sheds some more light on the topic:

                          Blazhe Ristovski: ….”The social, political and confessional status of the Macedonian people in Shariah Turkey further reinforced the contrast between the oppressed raya and kaurins, on the one hand, and the “true-believing” aghas and beys, on the other. This in turn aroused interest in the question and history of the Ottoman conquest of Macedonia, and animated the cult of King Mark’s kingdom in oral folklore....” Blazhe Ristovski: Macedonia And The Macedonian People

                          How about the other Macedonians on this forum, does King Marko have a place in our history as far as your a) upbringing, and b) current way of thought are concerned?
                          My upbringing was disrupted by emigration at a young age and I don't recollect much being retold about him. As for my current way of thought for the era, I would say that the Battle of Maritsa should be reclaimed as, in the main, a Macedonian endevour and as a very significant historical event for Europe.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Indigen
                            I would say that the Battle of Maritsa should be reclaimed as, in the main, a Macedonian endevour and as a very significant historical event for Europe.
                            I completely agree.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • fyrOM
                              Banned
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 2180

                              #59
                              I don’t know much about King Marko. that’s why the posts so far have been fascinating. Without trying to be facetious or anything I think his fortress was in Markukule Varos and Prilep came later at least from what I can remember my dad saying. Prilep derives its name from the word prilepeno as in stuck (sticky) next to. As I have heard it Prilep is the stuck on to Varos but then as the population grew Prilep became the city. Not a great much to add but its what ive heard.

                              Comment

                              • TrueMacedonian
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2009
                                • 3810

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                If you can find the book and scan some pages to post here it would be great.

                                I am not sure about how significant the legend and legacy of King Marko is with all Macedonians, even though he ruled nearly all of Macedonia. I know in my family we were told stories about him, and he is rightfully considered as a king of Macedonia and consequently 'ours'. The 19th century Macedonian writer Kuzman Shapkarev said that his father (or grandfather) told him stories about our history consisting mainly of two characters, Alexander the Great and King Marko.

                                How about the other Macedonians on this forum, does King Marko have a place in our history as far as your a) upbringing, and b) current way of thought are concerned?
                                Yes Marko is a part of our history. For historical reasons Marko and his family ruled in Macedonia. Let's put ethnicity aside for one second from the modern point of view and try to view it as these characters did in medieval times.
                                From a personal point of view my father told me about Marko when I was a child. His father told him of Marko, etc. If anything the Marko legend is a centuries long conscription to the past of our forefathers. Was Marko's legend shared by others? Absolutely. The Serbs today celebrate him as a Serbian Prince. But these imperial titles like "Serbian King" or "Bulgarian Tsar" have no real ethnic value to them.
                                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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