The Ancient Macedonian Language

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  • Homer MakeDonski
    Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 103

    Finally, the Greek tradition since antiquity has associated Semele with the Phrygian Mother of Gods - Kybele, who is named Rhea in Greek myths.

    SeMele / CyBelle

    The Bacchć's Chorus tells us that the timbrel, the flat drum, of Dionysos comes from the Mother --- that is, Kybele. Dionysos' connection with the Mother and with His Mother Semele and with females in general point to the OLD religion of Mother and Child.



    The Hermetic Fellowship Website is a continually evolving, content-rich resource centre for seekers desiring information regarding the Fellowship itself as well as a broad range of topics in the Western Magical Tradition, including Magic, Hermeticism, Qabalah, Paganism, Occultism, Rosicrucianism, Gnosticism, Alchemy, the Grail Mysteries, and the Mystery Religions of Antiquity.
    Last edited by Homer MakeDonski; 08-23-2010, 04:59 AM.

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    • Bratot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2855

      Originally posted by makedonin View Post
      Here is how I approach this. In order to prove that there is sound shift such as M<>B, this should be done on the same word from the same stem.

      Consider the simple case of P<>F sound shift in Greek: Pater, English: Father. The considered word has the same stem, same meaning, same origin. With that approach it is obvious and proven that the P<>F shift is real occurance.

      bar bar and murmur from the http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...yMaster-R.html are not the same stem and obviously they did not had the same meaning at the beginning, that is why we can't consider it as prove of M<>B sound change. They may have got same or similar meaning over time, but the basis is not the same, thus no proof of sound change.

      I hope, I am clear about it. I don't want to start a war here. What I want is solid proof for what is claimed, other than that we end up as wannabe and propagandists.
      Well your explanation is confirming the relation of Marmara = Barbara also supported by it's meaning.

      The stem you should compare is Bar/Mar or Brb/Mrm = Br/Mr

      Alike this ex.




      and the connection is based on the meaning.
      The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

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      • Homer MakeDonski
        Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 103

        Provide us with well standing references PLEASE.I beg you Bratot.
        Link does not working at my pc .
        Thanks
        Last edited by Homer MakeDonski; 08-23-2010, 05:17 AM.

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        • Homer MakeDonski
          Member
          • Jan 2010
          • 103

          I sow it now,thank you
          Blaze Koneski "Istorija na makedonskiot jazik"Kultura Skopje 1986 ...page 103

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          • Bratot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2855

            Np Homer.


            We can follow other mutations of the same meaning:

            брбори, дрдори, мрмори, гргори, цврцори, кркори, чрчори = brbori, drdori, mrmori, grgori, cvrcori, krkori, chrchori
            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

            Comment

            • Bratot
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2855

              Originally posted by Homer MakeDonski View Post
              I am very suspicious when for any name, Hellenic etymology is provided .
              While ago,at some of our forums,when we were discussed origin of name of Bogdan , Bratot has pointed some links with explanations that
              Bogdan originated from Theodore
              .
              Precisely

              old Russ. spelling of proper n. Feodor (Theodore).


              Od staroslovenski (makedonski):

              Имя Богдан пришло из старославянского языка, где появилось от греческого имени; Богдан означает - данный Богом

              Fediuk, form of Fedka, dim. of Fedor old Russ. spelling of proper n. Feodor (Theodore) .Patr. Fedorowicz .
              Heinrich Walter Guggenheimer,Eva H. Guggenheimer"Jewish family names and their origins: an etymological dictionary " [Hoboken, N.J.] : Ktav Pub. House, 1992. page... 236
              I doubt that
              Origin of the word Bogdan according to letter changes researches is out of name of
              Macedon
              Македон
              because ,
              M-> B
              K->G

              MaiKe
              BaiGe
              BaGa
              Bog


              while for name of Theodorus

              Theodorus =Teos-God + dorus~gift
              My opinion is that Theόs has it's root at Deus ,and Deus or f. *Deusa has its possible origin in our word Dusa-Душа standing for Soul





              At least this 'thanatos' - 'athanatos' should be checked out .
              Bogdan further support for my explanation with:


              Bagdad:

              Although there is no dispute over its Iranian origin,[3] there have been several rival proposals as to its specific etymology. The most reliable and most widely accepted among these is that the name is a Middle Persian compound of Bag "god" + dād "given", translating to "God-given" or "God's gift", whence Modern Persian Baɣdād. Another leading proposal is that the name comes from Middle Persian Bāgh-dād "The Given Garden". The name is pre-Islamic and the origins are unclear, but it is related to previous settlements, which did not have any political or commercial power, making it a virtually new foundation in the time of the Abbasids [4]. Mansur called the city “Madinat as-Salam”, or “City of Peace”, as a reference to paradise [5]. This was the official name on coins, weights, and other things.



              Баг-Бог — (Слав.) Бог; славянское имя греческого Вакха, чье имя стало прототипом имени Бог или Bagh и bog или bogh; по русски Бог. Источник: Теософский словарь … (Религиозные термины)

              (&#1072;&#1085;&#1075;&#1083;. bug &#1082;&#1083;&#1086;&#1087;, &#1078;&#1091;&#1082;) (&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1075;.) &#1074;&#1099;&#1103;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1072;&#1103; &#1086;&#1096;&#1080;&#1073;&#1082;&#1072;, &#1085;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1095;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;, &#1087;&#1086;&#1075;&#1088;&#1077;&#1096;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100;, &#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1091;&#1102;&#1097;&#1072;&#1103; &#1091;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1072;&#1085;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1103;. &#1069;&#1090;&#1086;&#1090; &#1090;&#1077;&#1088;&#1084;&#1080;&#1085; &#1096;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1082;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1103;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1074; &#1080;&#1085;&#1092;&#1086;&#1088;&#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;&#1082;&#1077;, &#1074; &#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086;&#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1080;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;


              Bāgh (Persian: باغ) is a word common to Persian,[1] Kurdish, Lurish, Urdu and Azarbaijani and means garden and orchard, specifically one containing fruit- and flower-bearing trees.[2] In Persian, the plural of Bāgh is Bāgh-hā (باغها or باغ ها) and in kurdish, Baxan (بيغان).

              In Armenian the word Bagh, pronounced Bakhg, means Garden or field. The Old Persian word Baga, or Bag, as in such word as Baghdād, means God [3][4] and should not be confused with Bāgh. Similarly for the Avestan word Bagh (note the difference between a and ā) and the Vedic Sanskrit word Bhag, both of which also mean God.[5]

              The Russian language utilizes the words bakhcha (бахча) and bakhchevye kultury (бахчевые культуры) to designate melons and gourds.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagh_(garden)

              And in Macedonian language we do have Bog for God and Bavcha for Garden.
              Last edited by Bratot; 08-23-2010, 05:57 AM.
              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

              Comment

              • makedonin
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1668

                Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                The stem you should compare is Bar/Mar or Brb/Mrm = Br/Mr

                Alike this ex.



                and the connection is based on the meaning.
                That is a good start, I admit, it bring us closer to the initial point that Mak > Bag. The only problem with the source you posted it is that the V,B to M sound shift is found in front of N sound, vn,bn > mn and that the sound shift is from B to M, not as initially stated that M shifts to B, as HomerMakedonski stated.

                I don't know if that is a problem, but is deffinitly a step foreward. If we can attest that any M>B shift is attested with M being infront of K, that would be great.

                If that is the case, than the Phrygian Bagaios(pronouce Bageos) would be the first indicator that Make > Bage > Bog. Than it can be argued that Make was the initial word, shfting to Bage(os) and to modern Bog.

                Samo napred, poleka izgleda mozhno.
                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  Bratot, to your list add Bagaios, Phrygian Zeus (Βαγαῖος Ζεὺς Φρύγιος) and interprets the name as δοτῆρ ἑάων, "giver of good things". Source

                  Even today we say Bogat coming from Bog, meaning giver of good things.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • Homer MakeDonski
                    Member
                    • Jan 2010
                    • 103

                    Mentioning Pokorny ,

                    I remind myself over some his k->g change examples:

                    mak- 'skin, leather bag'

                    Indo-European Reflexes:

                    English
                    Old English: maga
                    Middle English: maw
                    English: maw stomach: where food goes when swallowed


                    W-Germanic
                    Old High German: mago n maw
                    N-Germanic
                    Old Norse: maGi n.masc maw
                    Baltic
                    Lithuanian: maKis n.masc purse
                    Masedonian meV n. meshe
                    ____________
                    Ref:Julius Pokorny "Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch"(Bern, 1959). P.696, РП 698, p.730.
                    link:
                    Liberal Arts at UT offers over 40 majors and many top-ranked graduate programs in the social sciences and humanities taught by 750 faculty.

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                    • Homer MakeDonski
                      Member
                      • Jan 2010
                      • 103

                      Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                      The only problem with the source you posted it is that the V,B to M sound shift is found in front of N sound, vn,bn > mn and that the sound shift is from B to M, not as initially stated that M shifts to B, as HomerMakedonski stated.

                      I don't know if that is a problem, but is deffinitly a step foreward.
                      Samo napred, poleka izgleda mozhno.
                      And it is possible
                      stoMna -stoVna Malesevo dialect
                      From Koneski book

                      Comment

                      • Bratot
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 2855

                        At this stage I can't support what Homer proposed about Maike = Baige, but for the name of Macedonia I'm personally convinced for it's origin.

                        Great Mother Goddess or Cybele - Magna Mater culture the greatest cult in Minor Asia and Macedonia.

                        The Great Mother Goddess – Magna Mater – Culture of Govrlevo belongs to the period of Neolith, the world-accepted theory of the so-called Young Stone Age. It is the so-called time of the matriarchy, in the circle of cultures of the Mediterranean, but also of the east. ( My note: pay attention later on Egypt and China) That same matriarchy, probably does not mark the rule of the woman as such, which would encompass political practicing of power, but probably “rule” of female deities. Those that are part of life, but also those that are based on much deeper principles and differences of experiencing the world between the man and the woman. This is the Great Mother, the goddess that exists much longer than the neolith itself, even more than the matriarchy itself. The strength and the power that people give it and she gives to them are not the female ruling principles, but the immortal principles of time and space, but also time that does not pass, but exists, eternity that is not recognized. It is unusually calm, pretty as things that are not understood, but accepted when everybody has the need for it, and is always present in the home, in the sacredness of warmth and hearth. The artistic expression of this exceptional figure is the response to all doubts of and around its role in culture, which silently tells its story."


                        Govrlevo is a very interesting site since it opens many issues regarding our mythical past and the matriarchate as a significant background to the modern Feminine cult of Bogorodica, the Mother of Jesus, our Saviour. It turns out that the matriarchate must have left a very strong mark on the societies of that past, to that extent that it managed to survive within the subsequent populations, besides the new cults that were imported in the region from other cultures.

                        The very fact that the oldest anthropomorphic figure was also excavated in Goverlevo, points at the fact that Macedonia had been a very sprititual place, where besides the constant invasions and assimilations that took place, the local population managed to find haven in the spirituality that persevered in the Cult of St.Petka, St.Nedela, St. Paraskeva, and the strongest of all the cult of Mother Mary, or Bogorodica as we know it, the Mother of God.

                        Cybelle = Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.

                        Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Semele

                        Semele
                        daughter of Cadmus and mother of Dionysus, from L., from Gk. Semele, a Thraco-Phrygian earth goddess, from Phrygian Zemele "mother of the earth," probably cognate with O.C.S. zemlja "earth," L. humus "earth, ground, soil."

                        The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms. It is professional enough to satisfy academic standards, but accessible enough to be used by anyone.


                        Zemele - Zemle – Zemlje - Zemlja - Zemla – Zemja

                        The Cult of Magna Mater, the Great Mother, is probably the oldest religion of all. The earliest stone-age sculptures depict the mother- goddess, and an idol found in Catal Hьyьk, 6000 years old, depict her in the form she later became worshipped as Cybele in Phrygia, as a seated woman flanked by two leopards.


                        As I already explained in other thread:

                        Originally posted by Bratot View Post

                        The cult of the Great Mother

                        MA - mother

                        DON - DOM

                        Majcindom = Tatkovina = Motherland(home) = Fatherland




                        From domus (“‘house’”), from Proto-Indo-European *dṓm, from root *demh₂- (“‘to build’”).



                        From Latin dominus, "lord", "head of household", akin to Spanish don and Italian dom; from domus, "house", + diminutive suffix -inus. Cf. dominie.

                        http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/don

                        In the end, the cult vanished together with most other mystery cults of the antique era as Christianity took power and Rome was plundered. However, the cult was tenacious and left many tracks. St. Peters Cathedral in the Vatican is built right on top of the old temple of Magna Mater, and some parts are presumably left under the foundations. Cybele was worshipped under the names Kubaba and Kuba in Arabia, and Khaba in Mecca was originally a shrine to her. Many early Christians identified her with Mary.


                        In Asia Minor itself, the cult of Cybele is marked by carved rock facades with niches or by rock-hewn thrones, on which the statue would be set; in front of these, the rites were celebrated in the open air. Cybele was a goddess of the mountains, out of which she was believed to manifest herself to her devotees. Representations of the goddess show her in her niche, sometimes flanked by lions, draped in a long garment and wearing a high polos (cylindrical crown or headdress) or with bared breasts and flanked by musicians. Her name and her association with the lion cannot be separated from the Hittite Kubaba, whose cult had spread from Carchemish to the borders of Phrygia, but the process by which this matronly figure was transformed into the Mountain Mother of the Phrygians can only be surmised.

                        Anatolian religion, beliefs and practices of the ancient peoples and civilizations of Turkey and Armenia, including the Hittites, Hattians, Luwians, Hurrians, Assyrian colonists, Urartians, and Phrygians. For historical background, see Anatolia. Until comparatively recent times, the pre-Christian



                        Goddess Ma'at in Egypt:



                        Mazu Goddess in China:

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazu_(goddess)

                        *MA

                        For my understanding the interpreatation of Makedonia is only one logical conclussion:

                        Motherland

                        Ma - for Mother
                        Don - for home or land

                        Maika - Majke in Macedonian.

                        Don for Dom.

                        Makedonia
                        Last edited by Bratot; 08-23-2010, 06:50 AM.
                        The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                        Comment

                        • makedonin
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1668

                          The Magna Matter argument for the etymology of Makedonia is the most plausible, that is true.
                          To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                          Comment

                          • Bratot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2855

                            Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                            That is a good start, I admit, it bring us closer to the initial point that Mak > Bag. The only problem with the source you posted it is that the V,B to M sound shift is found in front of N sound, vn,bn > mn and that the sound shift is from B to M, not as initially stated that M shifts to B, as HomerMakedonski stated.
                            It's not a problem Makedonine, it was only a suggestion by an analogy.

                            Bn > Mn and why not Br > Mr and the other variations of :

                            брбори, дрдори, мрмори, гргори, цврцори, кркори, чрчори = brbori, drdori, mrmori, grgori, cvrcori, krkori, chrchori.

                            The structure in forming these words is identical and what is more important is their meaning.

                            Probably every letter is attached to one or another specific sound sources, such as:

                            Toj brbori/drdori nesto glupavo.
                            Toj mrmori nerazbirlivo.
                            Vodata grgori shumno.
                            Vrapcite cvrcorat glasno.
                            Oganot krkori a mandzata chrchori

                            All describing the odd sound of these particular sources having produced it.
                            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                            Comment

                            • Homer MakeDonski
                              Member
                              • Jan 2010
                              • 103

                              Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                              At this stage I can't support what Homer proposed about Maike = Baige, but for the name of Macedonia I'm personally convinced for it's origin.

                              Great Mother Goddess or Cybele - Magna Mater culture the greatest cult in Minor Asia and Macedonia.
                              It is o.k.
                              At the next stage hopefully ,over these two separated words connection as one whole could be, as I do


                              Cybele + Mother
                              *CyMele-Zemele +Mother =Earth Mother
                              As the Latin loan of Magna Mater- for it's own would state:
                              Mother -Materra -Ma/Terra i.e. Earth Mother at Latin
                              Last edited by Homer MakeDonski; 08-23-2010, 11:53 AM.

                              Comment

                              • Homer MakeDonski
                                Member
                                • Jan 2010
                                • 103

                                Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                                Bogdan further support for my explanation with:


                                Bagdad:

                                Although there is no dispute over its Iranian origin,[3] there have been several rival proposals as to its specific etymology. The most reliable and most widely accepted among these is that the name is a Middle Persian compound of Bag "god" + dād "given", translating to "God-given" or "God's gift", whence Modern Persian Baɣdād. Another leading proposal is that the name comes from Middle Persian Bāgh-dād "The Given Garden". The name is pre-Islamic and the origins are unclear, but it is related to previous settlements, which did not have any political or commercial power, making it a virtually new foundation in the time of the Abbasids [4].
                                Strange mon ami
                                I was with an idea to analyse this Bagdad name as well .
                                It does support your view's


                                My thoughts were and are that if it's unknowing origin has meaning of "God-given" or "God's gift" then
                                if Bag is standing for God ,then Dad shell stand up for gift .

                                Why daden ,because at Sans. we have recorded meaning of:
                                dad
                                dad cl. 1. ○dati, √dā mfn. ifc. āyurdád
                                dada
                                dada mf(ā)n. (cf. Pāṇ. 3-1, 139) 'giving', abhayaṃ-
                                • dhanaṃ-dadā
                                ⋙ dadana
                                dadana n. giving L.
                                ≫ dadāti
                                dadāti m. a gift Gaut. v, 19
                                ≫ dadi
                                dadí mfn. giving, bestowing (with acc.) RV. i f. iv, 24, 4 (cf. Pāṇ. 2-3, 69 Kāś.), viii ; x, 133, 3
                                ≫ daditṛ
                                daditṛ́ m. a giver (preserver?) VS. vii, 14
                                dadadas

                                Dad as shorten form of Da -da dade Macedonian -Dati Serbo Croatian -to give

                                Da
                                -datta 2
                                dattá mfn. (√1. dā) given, granted, presented RV. i f. viii, x AV. &c

                                Here after d->t changes
                                Dad -dat -given or Dat -Serbo Croatian ,Macedonian daden

                                ________________

                                Ref:
                                Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary

                                Version: 0.1 beta
                                Last updated: Thu 03/27/2003 11:41 PM
                                Based on the IITS - Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon
                                Based on R.B. Mahoney's ([email protected]) HTML Version 0.1a
                                Copyright © by University of Cologne (Universität zu Köln)
                                This Unicode HTML version by Prem Pahlajrai: ([email protected])

                                Last edited by Homer MakeDonski; 08-23-2010, 12:12 PM.

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