Zaev hints at referendum on name

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  • vicsinad
    Senior Member
    • May 2011
    • 2337

    #61
    There's only one viable peace offering: for Greece to stop insisting that Macedonia change its name AND for Greece to recognize the ethnic Macedonian identity and minority.

    Comment

    • Odi Zvezdo
      Junior Member
      • Apr 2016
      • 63

      #62
      Vic, there's more of a chance of aliens appearing on Earth!!!

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        #63
        That's probably very true hah

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #64
          Originally posted by Odi Zvezdo View Post
          Vic, there's more of a chance of aliens appearing on Earth!!!


          There you go
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Tomche Makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2011
            • 1123

            #65
            Originally posted by Opinci View Post
            I see that the name-change the Greeks are offering is ‘Vardar Macedonia’. I personally thought this was a good and viable peace-offering. I put it to my dad who went nuts. His response was utterly ridiculous and I detected that he is:
            1. Opposed in principle to a name change- so nothing will satisfy him; and,
            2. the idea of a name change is, for him, inextricably linked to Greece humiliating Macedonia.
            My father is not thinking at all practically about this issue, rather he is thinking of it all in symbolic terms. I think the Macedonians, in a referendum, will vote pragmatically not symbolically. It will boil down to who thinks they will benefit being in the EU, and will thus vote pragmatically for a name change, versus those who think they will not benefit by Macedonia joining the EU, which they’ll then post-fact rationalise via arguments about the humiliation of a name change our mortal enemies, Greece, are foisting on us.
            It’s a tragic tale. I think a referendum will be held and it is a foregone conclusion that it will pass and Macedonia, next year some time, will be called Vardar Macedonia. The referendum is a mere formality. They will put into place fail-safes so that some falsification will take place to get it over the required threshold- if they do not reach it naturally, which I think is highly likely to be achieved anyway.
            There is too much riding geopolitically on this name-change, and a consolidation of NATO control of the Balkans, to let this name-change issue continue to be a stumbling block to the western powers to leave it to some pensioner-age types fixated on some symbolic, largely imagined, vendettas. America carpet bombs countries to get their way, killing hundreds of thousands, so a small falsification of a name-change referendum is a walk in the park for them.
            What I did find strange, however, was how my dad was blinded by rage and hatred for the Greeks, who he insisted are humiliating us. I was attempting- without any measure of success whatsoever- to point out that Vardar Macedonia was precisely how we referred to our country ANYWAY, in all historical mentions of the partitioned Macedonia, which is comprised of the Pirinska and Egejska parts. He would avoid the issue and argue it was insulting. Obviously he isn’t part of the solution, rather he is the problem.
            The generational divide that partitioned Ukraine into east and west, rendering it a failed and bankrupt nation that’ll face years of civil war, as NATO ramps up its war there, is precisely the type of generational divide that Macedonia faces. The young age-groups will vote to join the EU, and thus for a name-change, while the older people will vote to stay out of the EU and keep the name Macedonia, for heaven forbid someone calls us Vardar- as we do anyway.
            In the Ukraine the young, western-located people voted to join the EU, while the older, eastern-located population voted to remain outside of the EU and wanted closer ties to Russia. The latter knew Russian, had worked in the old, industrialised parts and had a fondness for Russia. Then all hell broke loose when Viktor Yanukovych decided not to join the EU. Shortly thereafter he was whisked out of the country and joined Edward Snowdon in exile in Russia while his people were traipsing about in his private residences, reminiscent of the rampaging into the parliament in Macedonia.

            Recently they showed Gruevski’s 600k ‘tank’ limousine. Those excesses reminded me of Yanukovych’s lake, zoo and boat. LMAO incidentally, Yanukovych’s boat reminds me of the boat-restaurants on Vardar, in Skopje.



            The same transformation process implemented in Ukraine was orchestrated in Macedonia. The colour revolution.

            I think what is being missed in this name-change debate is the genuine scope, the parameters, the frame of reference of this situation.

            The problem is not:
            1. As my dad sees it, that the Greeks are humiliating us by changing our name; but, rather, the problem is,
            2. That if Macedonia does not join the EU and NATO VERY SOON, that the Western powers- via their proxies in Saudi Arabia (via their proxies in Montenegro, Bosnia, Kosovo)- will launch an ISIS campaign to destabilise Macedonia (just as is happening in Syria) and then carve out the north-western region of Macedonia to stitch it to Kosovo and Albania (in an expansionist project) while destabilising Skopje, thus turning Macedonia, overnight, into a failed state. This is required by the west to geopolitically isolate, surround Russia- the only competent state antagonising US global hegemony- to then bring Russia into a protracted multi-decade project of military armament (which Russia cannot afford) and low-level money-sapping conflict that’ll bankrupt Russia and finish it off for good.
            In that situation- the tectonic geopolitical machinations- the name-change hardly resonates for the major players, except as a thorn in their side, which if not resolved peacefully will DEFINITELY be resolved forcefully. So it is an situation that is LITERALLY an issue of existential survival for the nation state of Macedonia. Changing the name to Vardar Macedonia will seem like a fantasy everyone will be begging to return to- should they be criminally foolish and suicidal not to adopt it- but it’ll be a distant dream in the rear-view mirror once the Saudis unleash their proxy ISIS army. Ali Ahmeti and company will be the FIRST ones ISIS guns for, so forget the ethnic Macedonians, they’re toast, and Russia isn’t coming because Russia has PEANUTS to offer. So it’s either name-change or war. Everyone else missing this frame of reference is KIDDING THEMSELVES HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just look to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Ukraine, Yemen, Qatar- and some African countries, which are off the radar, for us, but very-much on the radar for the US who is meddling there, too. It’s either a name-change or a country-change. Zaev was the regime-change, via a soft-coup. But if you want otherwise, it means war.
            Finally, on a corollary point, if you are sitting in a western nation, spinning shit, and not going to be shooting the bullets when this war comes- if the US cannot bring Macedonia into NATO/EU via a name-change referendum- then stop being an arm-chair hero and urging a holding onto a mythical, largely fabricated, symbolism. Vardar Macedonia is a FANTASTIC offer and the Macedonians LIVING IN Macedonia should seize it with both hands and avoid war. If you want to wage some stupid diplomatic war with the Greeks, get ready to fight a ballistic war with the jihadis that are ALL-TOO-READY to come to the Balkans, once they’re given the green light, because their Syria caliphate failed (Russia nailed them, Obama didn’t send in the army to help them out- as Romney would have done), Trump is busy MAGA, while taking heat in 5 impeachment-oriented investigations by his own intelligence agencies, so he WON’T GIVE A SHIT about Saudis green-lighting a jihadi coup in Macedonia. The caliphate in Macedonia so far is only Talat Jaferi, sitting in a suit, in the parliament. But it could be some random nobody blowing the place apart. Think before you urge symbolic and useless victories IF YOU’RE NOT WILLING TO FIGHT.

            If you think that this referendum won’t be successful, then you simply haven’t been paying attention to US global hegemony and the way the planet is militarily aligned. The Greeks can’t veto anything if we change the name- they’re bankrupt and receiving handouts from the EU and have a failed state with a stratospheric suicide rate. Get a reality check. Beggars, quite literally, cannot be choosers. This applies EQUALLY to both neighbouring Balkan (constructed) states: Macedonia and Greece. They should learn to live together- they’re like two blacks fighting in the projects over food stamps. RIDICULOUS. This is another iteration of lame identity politics, like fundamentalist Christians versus gays/abortionists. Terrible, wasteful and plainly DUMB.
            I think you should spend more time actually listening to what your father has to say rather than going out of your way on an internet forum to purposefully disrespect him. Whilst you may ignorantly consider and choose to portray your own father as some kind of stubborn village peasant, his basic argument and reasoning makes a tonne of a lot more sense than any of that conflicting nonsensical dribble you just offensively regurgitated. My god how far the apple has fallen from the tree in this instance. I guess you're proof to the argument that it’s not always the parent’s fault on how the kid turned out. I feel sorry for your parents.

            In any case, as entertaining as you may think you are, take your meds and stop pretending to be someone you’re not, because you’re absolutely shit at it.
            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

            Comment

            • Phoenix
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 4671

              #66
              Opinci,

              Your father is absolutely correct.

              I'm having difficulty in connecting your two view points, they just don't seem to be grounded in the same logical thought process...you seem to have a reasonable grasp of the geopolitical machinations taking root in the Balkans and the wider region and yet you're a universe away from an understanding of the fundamental right to self-determination and how that impacts on all of us, as individuals and as a community.

              Comment

              • Spirit
                Member
                • May 2015
                • 154

                #67
                Can someone please enlighten me

                I've read somewhere that a couple of the proposed names that have been put on the table are "Constitutional Republic Of Macedonia" and "Democratic Republic Of Macedonia".

                What would be the implications be if any of the 2 proposed names above were to be accepted by the idiots who govern the Republic Of Macedonia?

                Comment

                • Rogi
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2343

                  #68
                  Apart from the fact that, given the most recent happenings in Macedonia, both of those names are actually oxymorons?

                  Comment

                  • Phoenix
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 4671

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Spirit View Post
                    Can someone please enlighten me

                    I've read somewhere that a couple of the proposed names that have been put on the table are "Constitutional Republic Of Macedonia" and "Democratic Republic Of Macedonia".

                    What would be the implications be if any of the 2 proposed names above were to be accepted by the idiots who govern the Republic Of Macedonia?
                    I'm really surprised that the name debate is still given oxygen by our side, whether it's our moronic leaders or just individuals shooting the shit.

                    There's absolutely no common ground in this issue, there's no possibility for compromise, nor any chance to reach a win-win solution.
                    Only one side has something to lose and that's an identity changing concession that can never be allowed to happen.

                    The debate is just ridiculous.

                    Comment

                    • Karposh
                      Member
                      • Aug 2015
                      • 863

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                      I'm sorry, I didn't bother reading after you mentioned your acceptance of a new name for me. I never came from Vardar Macedonia. I hope your father slapped you hard.
                      That's too funny Risto. I think Opinci's views on the Macedonian name issue is a perfect example of some of my previous rants where I've tried to highlight the disrespectful arrogance of today's younger generations who naturally assume they are so much more enlightened and knowledgeable than the generations before them. He even threw in the whole gay rights and anti-abortion debates in the mix for good measure as an example of something to be ridiculed for being backward and not progressive enough. Those who believe that the life of an unborn child matters too are just fanatical Christians apparently. But I digress.

                      Back to the topic at hand, the Greeks' proposal of Vardar Macedonia is not new and is a name they would be quite comfortable with. Firstly, it adds credence to the notion (which they love to promote) that the area which currently refers to itself as the "Republic of Macedonia" was always known as Vardarska in the past. An often argued point, which comes straight out of the handbook of Greek Lies and Myths about Macedonia, that every good Greek must learn, the Vardarska argument is right up there with the best of them. On the very rare occasions that they actually give the correct name of the Yugoslav province of the 1920's and 1930's, that is Vardarska Banovina, they always omit the fact that the whole of Yugoslavia, post WWI, was divided into Banovinas i.e. provinces. Nothing is ever mentioned of the fact that the newly drawn Banovinas of Yugoslavia, which were named after geographical features, were nothing more than an attempt by the Yugoslav authorities of the time to foster the new Yugoslav identity and dilute the existing national identities. The false impression Greeks are hoping to project is that, not too long ago, the area we now know as the Republic of Macedonia was in fact an ethnically ambiguous region with no clear national identity - Vardarska.

                      Secondly, as Risto alluded to above, the Greeks may play dumb but they know exactly what Vardar, Aegean and Pirin Macedonia mean. They are well aware that the same people that live in Vardar Macedonia also live in Aegean Macedonia. By renaming the Republic to Vardar Macedonia the link that the "Republic of Macedonia" offers all Macedonians, regardless of which part of geographical Macedonia they come from, becomes broken. Vardar Macedonia become the land of the Vardarskians and not the motherland of all Macedonians. It is a well thought out Trojan Horse for the offer.

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Spirit View Post
                        I've read somewhere that a couple of the proposed names that have been put on the table are "Constitutional Republic Of Macedonia" and "Democratic Republic Of Macedonia".
                        If I recall correctly, both of these "solutions" have been offered by the Macedonian side at certain points in the past 25 years and both were rejected almost immediately.
                        Whether it's Constitutional, Democratic, People's, Modern, Ancient, or blah-blah, it's the "Republic of Macedonia" part that Greeks have a problem with. So I doubt anything of the sort will be acceptable by the plate-smashing neighbors.
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Phoenix
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 4671

                          #72
                          Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                          If I recall correctly, both of these "solutions" have been offered by the Macedonian side at certain points in the past 25 years and both were rejected almost immediately.
                          Whether it's Constitutional, Democratic, People's, Modern, Ancient, or blah-blah, it's the "Republic of Macedonia" part that Greeks have a problem with. So I doubt anything of the sort will be acceptable by the plate-smashing neighbors.
                          Dragan,

                          I'd like to take it one step further...it's the "Macedonia" part that is the problem.

                          From day one, the greek strategy has been to convolute the argument to the point where any outsider following the story has been left lost and totally confused, outsiders either lose interest or they take the greek side, moulded by the relentless propaganda drive disseminated by the greeks.

                          Their goal is to erase 'Macedonia" as the name of the country or homeland, that will then influence what the people are called and what their language and culture is called, if "Macedonia" is not in the title it will be an easy step to erase the identity of the people themselves...

                          We've already experienced this in Australia from the bouzouki lobby in this country, if Macedonia accepts any form of name change the bouzouki lobby worldwide will push for that to be the new identity of the people...it will get extremely ugly...

                          Comment

                          • Spirit
                            Member
                            • May 2015
                            • 154

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                            Dragan,

                            I'd like to take it one step further...it's the "Macedonia" part that is the problem.

                            From day one, the greek strategy has been to convolute the argument to the point where any outsider following the story has been left lost and totally confused, outsiders either lose interest or they take the greek side, moulded by the relentless propaganda drive disseminated by the greeks.

                            Their goal is to erase 'Macedonia" as the name of the country or homeland, that will then influence what the people are called and what their language and culture is called, if "Macedonia" is not in the title it will be an easy step to erase the identity of the people themselves...

                            We've already experienced this in Australia from the bouzouki lobby in this country, if Macedonia accepts any form of name change the bouzouki lobby worldwide will push for that to be the new identity of the people...it will get extremely ugly...
                            We also had the Australian Government try to impose naming our language "Slav Macedonian".
                            Fortunately the AHMRC took them to court and won.
                            Last edited by Spirit; 06-20-2017, 06:59 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Stevce
                              Member
                              • Jan 2016
                              • 200

                              #74
                              Hi guys,

                              I think the problem is that the Macedonian media is not making a big deal out of this.
                              Macedonia changes it name and they get EU and NATO membership. Meanwhile Greece will continue to ban the language, not allow the ancient Cryillic writing on the churches which they covered up or the right of return to the child refugees unless they change there surnames to Greek. The media needs to call it what it is and that is genocide plain and simple. The same goes for Bulgaria also. The long term goal is to wipe us out once and for all.

                              Comment

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