DPMNE sells out Ohrid, 32 meter tall minaret to be Built!!

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  • Redsun
    Member
    • Jul 2013
    • 409

    #16
    I thought Christian numbers are falling everywhere.

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      #17
      Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post

      I remember staying over in Kumanovo, the early morning chanting woke me up. Wasn't a nice feeling, didn't feel like home..
      This ^ exactly.


      I'm not a religious person, but what people are ignorant about in regards to these mosques, is that they are not being built for religious purposes. A perfect example is in Prilep, where you can count Muslims on one hand, yet they build a mosque and now every morning half the city wakes up to a moaning imam.

      If those loud speakers were blasting anything else at some ungodly hour would anyone tolerate it? What if it was music, or a baby crying, or commercials? People would flip and and say its a nuisance and it needs to stop.

      There is a reason for those loud speakers, its to mark territory, to show you that they don't care what you think, they don't care if you want to hear it or not. It's meant to be in your face. Same goes for the minarets, the point is so that you can see them from all around, they are intentionally tall, again to mark territory. Do you think you would get permission to build your house 30 meters high?

      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1595

        #18
        Originally posted by Redsun View Post
        Its not a joke.

        Irregardless of religion, a Macedonian is a Macedonian.

        The first post isn't about Christian/Muslim divide, this thread is based on the construction of a minaret. I feel as if you are unintentionally introducing a Cristian/Muslim divide, why do you think it necessary to bend the thread in that direction?

        From what I understand the mosque already exists, now they want to add a minaret with funding from Turkey. I don't know if this mosque is currently being used and don't know what condition it is in.

        Thinking about what you had said Irregardless of religion. Is the Imam Macedonian?

        Do you know why the Turkish government funded it?
        Fair point Redsun. I have said three times now though that the minaret seems unecessary to me considering the demographics of Ohrid. I have also raised concern about Turkish-funded mosques and likened them to the tactics used by the Greek Patriarchate and Bulgarian Exarchate back-in-the-day. My point on the lack of care was simply in reference to religious structures as actual places of worship. The idea of Christianity becoming a minority in Macedonia only concerns me due to the Macedonian Orthodox church being the only religious denomition that actually protects Macedonians. If there were an Islamic Macedonian service that served the same purpose then it would be of no concern to me which religion was dominant. At the moment though, Macedonian Muslims are under attack by Albanian Muslims to be assimilated and are likely also attending Turkish-sponspored Mosques. This does concern me.
        Last edited by Liberator of Makedonija; 05-22-2017, 01:21 AM.
        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Karposh
          Member
          • Aug 2015
          • 863

          #19
          Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
          The whole Christian/Muslim divide is an absolute joke in my eyes, the religious identity of Macedonians means nothing to me as a Macedonian is a Macedonian irregardless of religion.
          Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
          If there were an Islamic Macedonian service that served the same purpose then it would be of no concern to me which religion was dominant.
          LoM, I take issue with you over these remarks.

          It is clear religion has little significance for you to make such assertions and it doesn't seem to bother you whether you see crescent-crowned minarets piercing the Macedonian skyline or the cross atop the humble church bell tower. It doesn't matter to you and you could care less. But it matters to me and, I dare say, to hundreds of thousands of other Orthodox Christian Macedonians.

          At the risk of sounding like a religious nutter (yet again), the reason it matters is that, whether people like it or not, our Christian Orthodox faith defines us as quintessentially Macedonian. From the moment Saint Paul was inspired by God to spread the new faith to the Macedonians, it is our faith as Orthodox Christians that keeps our identity alive today. Traditionally, Macedonia has been an Orthodox Christian land and, although the picture on the ground might be that of a “Jerusalem of the Balkans “, in the sense that it somehow belongs to both Christianity and Islam, I would much rather people recognise it in the other Jerusalem sense.

          One thing that is often brushed aside and not discussed in too much detail is that, for many Muslim Macedonians, their Muslim faith is stronger than their need to be Macedonian. Sure, they identify with the majority Macedonians but their loyalties can be fickle and often divided. For example, the Macedonian Muslims from the Reka region and Golo Brdo, on the whole, can be said identify as Macedonians while the majority of the Muslim Macedonians from Strushko identify primarily as Albanians and Turks and, still others, from regions such as Kichevsko, Zhupa in Debar, Skopska Torbeshija and Pelagonija identify exclusively as Turks, despite Macedonian being their first language.

          So contrary to your misguided and seemingly altruistic views, it is of great concern that the Macedonian Orthodox Church remains the dominant religion in Macedonia. I think it was mentioned on another thread that, for every new Orthodox Church that is built in Macedonia, ten more mosques mushroom up in no time. This is of grave concern.

          From the 70 mosques in its Ottoman heyday, Bitola now has ten mosques left. Four are functioning while the other six have been converted to museums or cultural and historical monuments. I can't tell you how much of a disappointment it is, as a Bitola native, to see the city skyline marred by these eyesores. For a city that is 89% Macedonian, it is a disproportionate representation of a minority religion in the city. The idiots even spend tonnes of money maintaining these “cultural monuments”. If we must commemorate our slavery under the Turks by keeping these eyesores in Bitola, then my suggestion would be to at least demolish the minarets and put a commemorative plaque on the front lawns describing how Macedonian peasants were forced to build these treasures of Islam over the foundations of the original Orthodox churches that once stood there. Jeni Mosque, in the centre of Bitola, is one such mosque that was apparently built over the foundations of three former orthodox churches, one of which was the church of St. George (which has many legends associated with it).

          Ohrid, besides being another majority (80.4% - from Wikipedia) Macedonian city is a tourist hub. Our one and only truly tourist destination, and a 32m minaret has no place in this city. In any other part of the world, it would be reasonable to say that such a thing is not appropriate in the context of its surroundings. So why should it be any different in Macedonia. If Ohrigjani don't want their skyline to turn into another Bitola skyline then they must get really loud over this and reject it outright. Otherwise it will just end up being yet another shameful disgrace for us all.

          Comment

          • Liberator of Makedonija
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 1595

            #20
            Originally posted by Karposh View Post
            LoM, I take issue with you over these remarks.

            It is clear religion has little significance for you to make such assertions and it doesn't seem to bother you whether you see crescent-crowned minarets piercing the Macedonian skyline or the cross atop the humble church bell tower. It doesn't matter to you and you could care less. But it matters to me and, I dare say, to hundreds of thousands of other Orthodox Christian Macedonians.

            At the risk of sounding like a religious nutter (yet again), the reason it matters is that, whether people like it or not, our Christian Orthodox faith defines us as quintessentially Macedonian. From the moment Saint Paul was inspired by God to spread the new faith to the Macedonians, it is our faith as Orthodox Christians that keeps our identity alive today. Traditionally, Macedonia has been an Orthodox Christian land and, although the picture on the ground might be that of a “Jerusalem of the Balkans “, in the sense that it somehow belongs to both Christianity and Islam, I would much rather people recognise it in the other Jerusalem sense.

            One thing that is often brushed aside and not discussed in too much detail is that, for many Muslim Macedonians, their Muslim faith is stronger than their need to be Macedonian. Sure, they identify with the majority Macedonians but their loyalties can be fickle and often divided. For example, the Macedonian Muslims from the Reka region and Golo Brdo, on the whole, can be said identify as Macedonians while the majority of the Muslim Macedonians from Strushko identify primarily as Albanians and Turks and, still others, from regions such as Kichevsko, Zhupa in Debar, Skopska Torbeshija and Pelagonija identify exclusively as Turks, despite Macedonian being their first language.

            So contrary to your misguided and seemingly altruistic views, it is of great concern that the Macedonian Orthodox Church remains the dominant religion in Macedonia. I think it was mentioned on another thread that, for every new Orthodox Church that is built in Macedonia, ten more mosques mushroom up in no time. This is of grave concern.

            From the 70 mosques in its Ottoman heyday, Bitola now has ten mosques left. Four are functioning while the other six have been converted to museums or cultural and historical monuments. I can't tell you how much of a disappointment it is, as a Bitola native, to see the city skyline marred by these eyesores. For a city that is 89% Macedonian, it is a disproportionate representation of a minority religion in the city. The idiots even spend tonnes of money maintaining these “cultural monuments”. If we must commemorate our slavery under the Turks by keeping these eyesores in Bitola, then my suggestion would be to at least demolish the minarets and put a commemorative plaque on the front lawns describing how Macedonian peasants were forced to build these treasures of Islam over the foundations of the original Orthodox churches that once stood there. Jeni Mosque, in the centre of Bitola, is one such mosque that was apparently built over the foundations of three former orthodox churches, one of which was the church of St. George (which has many legends associated with it).

            Ohrid, besides being another majority (80.4% - from Wikipedia) Macedonian city is a tourist hub. Our one and only truly tourist destination, and a 32m minaret has no place in this city. In any other part of the world, it would be reasonable to say that such a thing is not appropriate in the context of its surroundings. So why should it be any different in Macedonia. If Ohrigjani don't want their skyline to turn into another Bitola skyline then they must get really loud over this and reject it outright. Otherwise it will just end up being yet another shameful disgrace for us all.

            Have to disagree with you on that one Karposh, your religion has nothing to do with being Macedonian. "A quintessential Macedonian", as you put it does not have to be an Orthodox Christian.

            As I said before, Muslim Macedonians are facing assimilative processes from the Albanians which have lead to many of them declaring themselves to be Albanian. The leaders of the Islamic community of Macedonians have repeatedly asked for support from consecutive Macedonian governments to prevent the spread of Albanian assimilation tactics amongst the Muslim Macedonians but they have received little support from the Christo-centric DPMNE. This is a stupid move in my opinion as the DPMNE is meant to be a Nationalist party, yet it makes no sense to alienate proud ethnic Macedonians because of their religion. It is also hypocritical as DPMNE claim ideological decent from VMRO, yet VMRO were secular in their thinking and saw the need for Macedonians to come together irregardless of their religion.

            I also believe this is the fourth time I have had to say this because no one seems to be reading this part of my argument; but I have said that I believe a minaret makes no sense in a city like Ohrid and the people of the city have every right to oppose such a pointless contruction effort in their home.
            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #21
              Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
              My point on the lack of care was simply in reference to religious structures as actual places of worship. The idea of Christianity becoming a minority in Macedonia only concerns me due to the Macedonian Orthodox church being the only religious denomition that actually protects Macedonians.
              Christianity has been present in Macedonia for 2,000 years and is embedded in Macedonian culture. It is a core component of our culture. Churches and monasteries are representations of our culture. Mosques and minarets are not. They are accepted due to historical legacy and for the benefit of minorities. The advancement of such structures should never be accepted when it has the potential to diminish the culture of the titular nation. In Macedonia, all citizens should be afforded the same legal and human rights, but it is the only 'free' (and I use that term loosely) country which all Macedonians can call their own. It must preserve and give precedence to Macedonian culture if it is to maintain its Macedonian character. No other self-respecting nation would accept anything less. Nor should we.
              If there were an Islamic Macedonian service that served the same purpose then it would be of no concern to me which religion was dominant.
              You're speaking of an unrealistic hypothetical which exists neither in historical nor in contemporary Macedonia. Like I said before, Christianity is a significant part of Macedonian culture. It's worth taking the time to read up on it. Whether you're religious or not is irrelevant.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Liberator of Makedonija
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 1595

                #22
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                Christianity has been present in Macedonia for over 2,000 years and is embedded in Macedonian culture. It is a core component of our culture. Churches and monasteries are representations of our culture. Mosques and minarets are not. They are accepted due to historical legacy and for the benefit of minorities. The advancement of such structures should never be accepted when it has the potential to diminish the culture of the titular nation. In Macedonia, all citizens should be afforded the same legal and human rights, but it is the only 'free' (and I use that term loosely) country which all Macedonians can call their own. It must preserve and give precedence to Macedonian culture if it is to maintain its Macedonian character. No other self-respecting nation would accept anything less. Nor should we.

                Again, have to disagree that is a core compenent of our culture, to me and many many other Macedonians it is not a compenent at all. To say Mosques and minarets are not representative of Macedonians is quite ignorant considering the thousands of Muslims that see themselves as Macedonians and speak Macedonian, it is wrong to discriminate against them because they belong to a minorty religion within the Macedonian nation.
                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                  As I said before, Muslim Macedonians are facing assimilative processes from the Albanians which have lead to many of them declaring themselves to be Albanian. The leaders of the Islamic community of Macedonians have repeatedly asked for support from consecutive Macedonian governments to prevent the spread of Albanian assimilation tactics amongst the Muslim Macedonians but they have received little support from the Christo-centric DPMNE. This is a stupid move in my opinion as the DPMNE is meant to be a Nationalist party, yet it makes no sense to alienate proud ethnic Macedonians because of their religion.
                  I agree with that. But many Macedonian Muslims willingly choose to side with their coreligionists. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact. Those types feel more affinity for their religion than for their ethnic background. On a side note, the Macedonian Muslims in western Macedonia are relatively late converts when compared to Bosniaks and Albanians.
                  ........VMRO were secular in their thinking and saw the need for Macedonians to come together irregardless of their religion.
                  That's correct. But how many Macedonian Muslims can you name that heeded the call of VMRO and formed their own revolutionary bands to liberate Macedonia from the Ottoman yoke?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Liberator of Makedonija
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 1595

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    I agree with that. But many Macedonian Muslims willingly choose to side with their coreligionists. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact. Those types feel more affinity for their religion than for their ethnic background. On a side note, the Macedonian Muslims in western Macedonia are relatively late converts when compared to Bosniaks and Albanians.
                    I have no information on Muslim Macedonians willingly being assimilated and so can't really comment. Greater support for them by the government would help in keeping their identity strong.


                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    That's correct. But how many Macedonian Muslims can you name that heeded the call of VMRO and formed their own revolutionary bands to liberate Macedonia from the Ottoman yoke?
                    Couldn't give you any names. I am aware of non-Macedonians such as Pitu Guli contributing to the cause but I do not know any other non Christian Macedonian by name.
                    I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                      Again, have to disagree that is a core compenent of our culture, to me and many many other Macedonians it is not a compenent at all.
                      You can disagree as much as you like, but that merely serves to demonstrate your ignorance. And that's fine for now, you're new here, you've made a number of inquiries about our history, and I think that's great. But perhaps you should take the time to learn a little more before taking a firm position on issues such as this. The effects of Christianity in Macedonian culture are not just overt (for that there are many obvious examples), it goes much deeper, so much so that many (if not most) of our customs which people like yourself may take for granted have a Christian element to them.
                      To say Mosques and minarets are not representative of Macedonians is quite ignorant considering the thousands of Muslims that see themselves as Macedonians and speak Macedonian, it is wrong to discriminate against them because they belong to a minorty religion within the Macedonian nation.
                      I am not discriminating against them. They themselves know that they have only been Muslims for a couple of centuries at the most. They also know that they are a tiny religious minority of the Macedonian ethnic group. Do you really think they don't know that Islam as a religion pales in significance compared to Christianity where it concerns Macedonian culture in general?
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                        Couldn't give you any names.
                        From the top of my head, I couldn't give you any names either. And I would chance to say that I have researched Macedonian history for much longer than you have. That alone says something about the allegiances of at least some Macedonian Muslims from the Ottoman period, don't you think?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Gocka
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 2306

                          #27
                          I kind of get where Liberator is coming from although, I think his view point is not yet fully formed and informed.

                          I actually agree that a big fault in Macedonian thinking then and now, was the out casting of those who weren't Macedonian enough. I mean just look at how the transcendence of religion and regional differences have benefited the Albanian ethnicity. On the other hand look at Macedonians, you have Torbeshi, Vlasi, Ejgejci (also called Grci), Pirici (also called Bugari), Srbmonai, Bugarofili, Grkomani, etc. We tend to push each other away, and this weakens our ability to form a strong ethnicity.

                          Now here is where I think the viewpoint is not developed enough. You can bring everyone into the fold as Macedonians, but you can't ignore the fact that all these Macedonian groups share a common culture that is in many cases directly tied to our predominantly Orthodox faith. Even Muslim Macedonians celebrate holidays and follow customs that come from our historical Orthodox faith, not their practicing Muslim faith.

                          Now as it relates to these Turkish and Saudi funded mega Mosques, not only in Macedonia but all over the Balkans, you have to see through the fact that it is a religious structure, that is part of the con. Like I said, do you think you could get building permits for a 32 meter high home, business, etc, that would blast noise through a loud speaker at some unholy hour for everyone in the area to listen to.

                          It is the right of any citizenry to accept or reject what they want i their neighborhood. In my town that I live in, the residents voted that there can be no liquor stores or bars. If the citizens of Ohrid or any other town, don't want a mega mosque, then that is their right. If we are a tolerant and good people, we will make a fair compromise. For example, the mosque is already there, and yes some of the residents use it for worship. So a fair compromise would be that you can renovate it, no larger than its original size, and the minarets can be a maximum height determined by local zoning codes, and you can not broadcast your prayer over loudspeakers, the same way that I can't broadcast what I want over a loud speaker.

                          Comment

                          • Redsun
                            Member
                            • Jul 2013
                            • 409

                            #28
                            Why is there a mosque in Ohrid? Who built it? How old is it?

                            Comment

                            • Pelagonija
                              Member
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 533

                              #29
                              If it wasn't for the Church we'd be like the bloody Bosnians.

                              Through ottoman periods the church kept our identity, our strength and core values.

                              The church's influence has been on the decline Post WWII in socialist and Liberal Macedonia. What the Turks couldn't do in 550 years, we will do ourselves in 70 years.

                              PS whilst I am respectful of Muslims, I personally don't view them as Macedonian.

                              Sorry fellas, I love the church and i simply can not separate it from Macedonianism

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                                Again, have to disagree that is a core compenent of our culture, to me and many many other Macedonians it is not a compenent at all. To say Mosques and minarets are not representative of Macedonians is quite ignorant considering the thousands of Muslims that see themselves as Macedonians and speak Macedonian, it is wrong to discriminate against them because they belong to a minorty religion within the Macedonian nation.
                                This kind of renovation is nothing less than a declaration of war. It seeks to erode the Macedonian identity and over-represents the needs of an almost insignificant minority.

                                Your reason for suggesting the minarets are pointless seem to be based on some kind of economic rationality instead of based upon an insidious attack to the Macedonian identity (which is EXTREMELY abundant) in Ohrid.

                                I agree the definition of a Macedonian can extend easily to people who are not Orthodox. A former leader was Methodist. In Macedonia, being Muslim is extremely close to a declaration of NOT being Macedonian. I think they should be regarded as Macedonians but they mostly do not. You are possibly confusing your hopes with reality.

                                I hope this is quashed and could not think of anything worse than that declaration of war against Macedonians spewed out on loudspeakers at intervals.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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