Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Stojacanec
    Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 809

    Boycotting strategy is highly risky and has a high potential for disastrous results.
    The mood is not that one sided where boycotting would result in a low voter turnout and an invalid referendum.

    All the shiptari will show up and vote yes therefore you don't need that many more Macedonians to make 51%.

    Send a clear message and vote No and put it beyond doubt.

    Why does a simple NO vote seem so difficult??

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      A few reasons, which just voting No does not suffice.

      The referendum questions is essentially asking, are you for EU and NATO membership, then qualifying it with, by accepting the Prespa agreement. So no where does it plainly say do you accept a name change. So in that regard it is dishonest.

      Then there is the means by which the referendum came about. The entire Prespa agreement is unconstitutional and thus invalid. Meaning the referendum itself is unconstitutional and invalid.

      Based on those first two reasons, even voting in the referendum would constitute legitimizing the whole process that led to the Prespa agreement and thus legitimize the agreement itself. So in principle a boycott is good.

      Then there is the math problem. Even if everyone who wanted to vote NO did so, it's not a certainty that a majority will vote NO. So by participating and voting NO, you do two things to your own peril. Risk pushing turnout high and legitimizing the process, and you risk losing the actual vote.

      The only real option here was to note vote, and cause anarchy during the voting process.


      Originally posted by Stojacanec View Post
      Boycotting strategy is highly risky and has a high potential for disastrous results.
      The mood is not that one sided where boycotting would result in a low voter turnout and an invalid referendum.

      All the shiptari will show up and vote yes therefore you don't need that many more Macedonians to make 51%.

      Send a clear message and vote No and put it beyond doubt.

      Why does a simple NO vote seem so difficult??

      Comment

      • Niko777
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2010
        • 1895

        DPMNE's Official Decision on how to vote in the Referendum: "Everyone should make their own decision!"

        Comment

        • Gocka
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 2306

          LMAO, suck on that all you DPMNE apologists. They don't even have the balls to ask people to vote no, let alone more.

          Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
          DPMNE's Official Decision on how to vote in the Referendum: "Everyone should make their own decision!"

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
            They know what they are. They don't care what they will become.
            That is the argument that Stojance Angelov was making during a recent debate with Filip Petrovski. "Jas uste ke bidam Makedonec", or something to that effect. This coming from a guy who was once a celebrated general and national hero, to forming a party (ironically called Dostoinstvo, meaning Dignity) claiming to be against any name change, to joining forces with Zaev and urging people to vote yes in the referendum. Filip Petrovski seemed to be advocating for that old dual-name formula, our constitutional name for international use and let Greece call us whatever they want. There is not a single political figure of substantial influence in Macedonia that is for a complete cessation of negotiations with those racist animals who form the ruling class down south.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Tomche Makedonche
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2011
              • 1123

              Macedonia's conservative opposition leader has told supporters to vote "with their conscience" in the upcoming referendum on changing the country's name.


              Opposition Leader Tells Macedonians To Vote 'With Their Conscience' In Name-Change Referendum

              Macedonia's conservative opposition leader has told supporters to vote "with their conscience" in the upcoming referendum on changing the country's name.

              The vote was up to "each individual, with their conscience and morals" to "decide what's best for their family and our beloved Macedonia," VMRO-DPMNE leader Hristijan Mickoski said in comments published on the party's website on September 12.

              Mickoski, whose party opposes a deal Macedonia signed with Greece in June to change the name of the former Yugoslav republic, did not call for a boycott of the referendum set for September 30.

              The deal changes Macedonia's name to the Republic of North Macedonia, ending a dispute with Greece that has lasted for decades.

              Macedonia's center-left government of Prime Minister Zoran Zaev launched its referendum campaign earlier this week, urging people to support the name change.

              The campaign has been supported by EU leaders and the United States.

              If the name change is approved in the referendum, and Macedonia's constitution is changed, it will open the door for Macedonia to join the EU and NATO.

              U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis will embark on September 16 on a trip to Skopje to "show U.S. support for Macedonia during NATO accession and continued U.S. commitment to peace and security in the region," the Defense Department said in a September 12 statement.

              Mattis announced he would travel to Macedonia this weekend and he voiced concern about possible acts of "mischief" by Russia to try and block Macedonia's path to NATO membership.

              U.S. Senator Ron Johnson, who sits on a Senate subcommittee overseeing European and regional security, traveled to the Macedonian capital on September 9.

              NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have also visited.
              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                A clever move.
                The DPmNE party has been relegated to irrelevance now and Macedonia's true masters only want to play with SDSm now. The statement below opens the door for DPmNE in the future. I am sure they are hoping to be the preferred lapdog in the future by not rejecting this treachery.

                Originally posted by Niko777 View Post
                DPMNE's Official Decision on how to vote in the Referendum: "Everyone should make their own decision!"
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  Macedonia's conservative opposition leader has told supporters to vote "with their conscience" in the upcoming referendum on changing the country's name.
                  This clown is a conservative? A misnomer if there ever was one.
                  The vote was up to "each individual, with their conscience and morals" to "decide what's best for their family and our beloved Macedonia," VMRO-DPMNE leader Hristijan Mickoski said in comments published on the party's website on September 12.
                  Hedging his bets like a coward. Somebody should ask him what he is going to do personally, vote yes, no or boycott.
                  Mattis announced he would travel to Macedonia this weekend and he voiced concern about possible acts of "mischief" by Russia to try and block Macedonia's path to NATO membership.
                  Even if Russia creates "mischief" to halt Macedonia's direction towards NATO, how is that different to what the U.S. and EU are doing by essentially coercing Macedonia towards national suicide?
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Tomche Makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 1123

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    Even if Russia creates "mischief" to halt Macedonia's direction towards NATO, how is that different to what the U.S. and EU are doing by essentially coercing Macedonia towards national suicide?
                    That’s the kind of pie in your face obvious shit that doesn’t seem to register at all to these self righteous pricks
                    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                    Comment

                    • Tomche Makedonche
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2011
                      • 1123



                      Zaev in first European Parliament address by Macedonian PM in Macedonian Language

                      Strasbourg, 13 September 2018 (MIA) - Prime Minister Zoran Zaev addressed Thursday the European Parliament at the invitation of EP President Antonio Tajani.

                      Zaev said the address was the first by a Macedonian Prime Minister in Macedonian language in the European Parliament.

                      "This is a historic moment for the Macedonian people. This is the first time for as prime minister from the country to deliver a speech before the European Parliament in his own mother tongue," said Zaev.

                      He explained the importance of the Prespa Agreement and thanked Greek counterpart Alexis Tsipras.

                      According to him, the September 30 referendum is a vote for the country's second independence.

                      "For the Republic of Macedonia, this is an opportunity that we have waited for a long time. In 1991 we voted for independence at a referendum. Now, we must make the next step: create a real opportunity to become NATO's 30th member and launch the EU accession negotiations, chapter by chapter. The September 30 vote is much more than a referendum on the Prespa Agreement. It is one for the future, for our second independence," stressed PM Zaev.

                      Similar to PM Tsipras a couple of days ago, he noted that the name issue settlement can serve as model for solution of other bilateral disputes.

                      "We want to serve as an example and inspiration for settlement of all bilateral issues in the Western Balkans, giving strong support to sustainable solutions based on European values and international law, permanently stabilizing the region and preparing it for EU integration," stressed Zaev.

                      He elaborated on the reasons why "there is no strong EU without a successful Balkans".

                      "A successful Balkans is one integrated in the EU. This vision has motivated us to make the historic step and stimulate processes of reconciliation, building unity and alliances in the region," said Zaev.

                      He referred to the region's importance in the migrant crisis management, saying investment in the Balkans is an investment for a stable, strong and united Europe.

                      The PM assured MEPs that Macedonia is doing everything to achieve European Union standards.

                      "We are aware of the recommendations, they are our priorities: independent and democratic institutions, rule of law and fight against corruption, professional public administration in service of citizens," added Zaev.

                      He said Macedonia is a successful European story, an authentic model of functional multiethnic democracy.

                      "The country is living the European slogan 'United in Diversities' on a daily basis," noted Zaev.

                      He drew a parallel between the crisis within the European Union and the political crisis that Macedonia has gone through, saying it is a struggle of open society against authoritarian nationalism.

                      "The political crisis we have gone through was in fact one for values, similar to that in European and global terms - struggle for liberal values of rule of law, human rights and liberties, democratic governance, open economy, against authoritarian nationalism," said Zaev.

                      He said that young people in Macedonia dream of being a part of the European family.

                      "Yes, our people want to be part of this family. We feel as Europeans. Back in 1991, I was 17 and dreaming of being part of the European family.

                      Young people in the country still have this dream. Now, 27 years later, as PM, on behalf of the citizens of my country, I speak in the European Parliament in my Macedonian language," concluded Zaev.
                      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                      Comment

                      • Tomche Makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 1123



                        Zaev: Constitutional Revision After Referendum

                        Lipkovo, 15 September 2018 (MIA) - The constitutional revision is logical and will be administered by parliamentary committees after completion of the referendum, said Prime Minister Zoran Zaev on Saturday.

                        "Changes will be made in Articles 3 and 49 of the Constitution preamble. The preamble will only enhance the decisions of the Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) for freedom, democracy, equality among citizens.

                        Article 49 that refers to the diaspora will be adapted to the European context. Macedonia has a diaspora of ethnic Macedonians, Albanians, Turks, Roma, Serbs, Vlachs and the current wording could cause irredentism or provocations in the future.

                        Therefore, we will adapt it as in EU member-states and how the country takes care of its diaspora," PM Zaev told reporters during a visit to Lipkovo.

                        Republic of Macedonia will be changed into Republic of North Macedonia, whereas Macedonian will remain as it is.

                        "These constitutional revision is quite logical. I believe the changes will be promoted once the official committees complete them. A formal procedure cannot be launched yet because this would mean prejudging of the people's will," said Zaev.

                        The parliamentary committees will work on the constitutional revision once the referendum results are released. A two-third majority is initially required, followed by a 30-day debate, a simple majority vote, another debate, ending with a two-third majority vote.

                        "Our calculations show that 106 days are required for the entire procedure. This is the process in Macedonia, followed by a vote in the Greek parliament, and finally realization of the friendship we have created," underlined PM Zaev.
                        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          And yet Zaev still lives.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            A formal procedure cannot be launched yet because this would mean prejudging of the people's will," said Zaev.
                            He says this after suggesting that the people’s will (“referendum”) wont be binding anyway. Manipulative maggot.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Pelagonija
                              Member
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 533

                              Zaev and co are leftist Marxist lunatics, actually a majority of Fyromers are. This is why communism is making a comeback. Bratsvo I idenstvo.. or be purged.

                              Comment

                              • Carlin
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 3332

                                Марш „Излези ЗА! европска Македонија” во Скопје

                                Со траспарент и беџови „Излези ЗА! европска Македонија”, со македонски и знамиња на ЕУ во Скопје се одржува маршот на поддржувачите на Коалицијата “ЗА европска Македонија”.

                                URL:


                                Со транспарентот „Излези ЗА! европска Македонија” граѓаните ги предводеа премиерот Зоран Заев, претседателот на Собранието Талат Џафери, министрите Никола Димитров, Радмила Шекеринска и Оливер Спасовски, градоначалникот на Скопје Петре Шилегов.

                                Собирот е пред седиштето на Делегацијата на ЕУ во Македонија, а започна со интонирање на македонската химна и на Одата на радоста.

                                Во Скопје за маршот организирано со автобуси пристигнаа граѓани од цела Македонија.



                                Video from Канал 5 (youtube)


                                Update: ФОТО ГАЛЕРИЈА - Огромен број на граѓани излегоа на денешниот “Марш ЗА европска Македонија”
                                Last edited by Carlin; 09-16-2018, 04:30 PM.

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