Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

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  • Sweet Sixteen
    Banned
    • Jan 2014
    • 203

    #16
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    The only thing they knew of Macedonia was that "it didn't exist". They seem to forget easily. Kind of pathetic really.
    Well, that’s slightly (just slightly) inaccurate. Greeks have been using the terms Macedonia for the region and Macedonian for its people. The adjective Macedonian was used for everything local (products, foods, music, songs, dances, dresses etc).

    The No 1 newspaper of Macedonia (from 1911 till today) is called… “Macedonia” and has the faces of Philip & Alexander in its logo. One of the first Greek newspapers of Thessaloniki before “Macedonia” was called “Lighthouse of Macedonia [Φάρος της Μακεδονίας]” (1881-1902).

    The Macedonian Struggle is the No3 National Holiday and the song “Famed Macedonia [Μακεδονία Ξακουστή]” is the No 2 National Song (after National Hymn). The heroes of the Macedonian Struggle were called Macedonian Fighters.

    Football Teams (Macedonicos), associations, clubs, various companies, local administrations etc bare the names Macedonia/ Macedonian. All these, were since long before 1980s. It should be emphasized that the name was never avoided or replaced (e.g. with an alternate name).

    *Edit: That's just an older post of mine, that was deleted by administrators along with my (then) account.


    ===
    Last edited by Sweet Sixteen; 05-20-2014, 03:13 PM.

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15658

      #17
      Sorry my friend. You clearly weren't in Australia 30 years ago. You simply do not know the "official" stance of Greeks as it related too Macedonians back then. You're going to have to trust my intimate knowledge of the reality of this matter. Where do you think those pathetic people learned such a strange concept?

      They used to say Macedonians don't exist. Now they say they they are Macedonians. I'm not making this up. By all means tell me about the prosfiga with a picture of Alexander the Great on his house in 1930 but don't tell me what was really going on in the diaspora.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Nikola Gruevski
        Banned
        • May 2014
        • 17

        #18
        I don't make the rules here, but have I not seen this conversation on another thread? I hope everyone participates on the strategies, rather than historical perspectives, at least on this thread.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #19
          Nikola, your name choice is unfortunate. Some would think you are a Macedonian. How about you either contribute or else shut up?
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Nikola Gruevski
            Banned
            • May 2014
            • 17

            #20
            Originally posted by Sweet Sixteen View Post
            Well, that’s slightly (just slightly) inaccurate. Greeks have been using the terms Macedonia for the region and Macedonian for its people. The adjective Macedonian was used for everything local (products, foods, music, songs, dances, dresses etc).

            The No 1 newspaper of Macedonia (from 1911 till today) is called… “Macedonia” and has the faces of Philip & Alexander in its logo. One of the first Greek newspapers of Thessaloniki before “Macedonia” was called “Lighthouse of Macedonia [Φάρος της Μακεδονίας]” (1881-1902).

            The Macedonian Struggle is the No3 National Holiday and the song “Famed Macedonia [Μακεδονία Ξακουστή]” is the No 2 National Song (after National Hymn). The heroes of the Macedonian Struggle were called Macedonian Fighters.

            Football Teams (Macedonicos), associations, clubs, various companies, local administrations etc bare the names Macedonia/ Macedonian. All these, were since long before 1980s. It should be emphasized that the name was never avoided or replaced (e.g. with an alternate name).

            *Edit: That's just an older post of mine, that was deleted by administrators along with my (then) account.


            ===
            Sweet Sixteen & Risto the Great

            In grade school in Greece 1969/70 I was taught about Pavlos Melas, Markos Dragoumis and others, whom I can't remember now, but these men were from Macedonia or Northern Epiros (Albania). The Macedonia liberation and Macedonians of Greek stock were front and center in school in Greece, as was the Greek populations of Constantinople and obviously Smirni.

            However, in the late 70's in Canada I got to know of another type of Macedonian. We would meet as friends or friends of friends, but they were foreign to me and always left me confused about the term. Every time I would meet these people they would go out of there way to tell me that they were not Greek. In prolonged statements about how they were not Greek, and that they were from Yugoslavia. I would read one thing about Macedonians, most books by foreigners, telling me that Greeks are Macedonians and then these people telling me something else.

            In my late teens I had a Macedonian friend and while at his house I met his parents and they told me with out me asking that they understand my language. I never questioned them out of respect and ignorance as it did not matter to me.

            From my mother I found out that she had two meanings for the term "makedoni". One for those of Greek stock and one for those from the "seenora" (Border area), but for the foreigners it was always accompanied with a term I can't use on this forum.

            With regards to family history my great grandmother was born in 1870 and I met her in 1972 one year before her death. Hard of sight but still with a strong mind. The account of the family was told by her at family gatherings and that account stretched back to her great grandparents life. It was of accounts of Greeks in Macedonia and on the islands.

            That is my account. Make of it what you will.

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              #21
              NG,

              I'm amazed that Greeks have never questioned the white elephant in the room. Macedonians know exactly who they are and who you are. We've never been confused about this. Greeks, on the other hand, always seem confused, especially when they hear about the existence of people calling themselves Macedonians but affirming they're not Greek. One would think that the fact you lot are always confused about this should ring alarm bells that someone has been lying to you all your lives...but it doesn't...even though we live right next door and everyone else in the world seems to get it. A book called "1984" comes to mind...
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15658

                #22
                Don't talk to me about Macedonians in Yugoslavia. No need to look that far. Have your lot really forgotten about the Macedonians in Greece? What is the term? Endopi?

                You probably even have a reason why Greece stopped calling the region Macedonia for a while.

                Ahhh, I love Greeks with dangerous gaps in their knowledge.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Nikola Gruevski
                  Banned
                  • May 2014
                  • 17

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  NG,

                  I'm amazed that Greeks have never questioned the white elephant in the room. Macedonians know exactly who they are and who you are. We've never been confused about this. Greeks, on the other hand, always seem confused, especially when they hear about the existence of people calling themselves Macedonians but affirming they're not Greek. One would think that the fact you lot are always confused about this should ring alarm bells that someone has been lying to you all your lives...but it doesn't...even though we live right next door and everyone else in the world seems to get it. A book called "1984" comes to mind...
                  I've read 1984 in university. I have also read Anthony Burgess' "1985" a critique of "1984" and proposed response to it.

                  "1984" was written by George Orwell in 1948, he simply reversed the last two numbers. What Orwell was describing in his book "1984" was the future under communism. A fate that Greece escaped. In that world Big Brother controlled everything, (think Tito, and Stalin). It was a world where 1+1=3.



                  These two men formed the societies and thinking of Yugoslavia and Eastern Block Countries

                  Comment

                  • Nikola Gruevski
                    Banned
                    • May 2014
                    • 17

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                    Don't talk to me about Macedonians in Yugoslavia. No need to look that far. Have your lot really forgotten about the Macedonians in Greece? What is the term? Endopi?

                    You probably even have a reason why Greece stopped calling the region Macedonia for a while.

                    Ahhh, I love Greeks with dangerous gaps in their knowledge.

                    In the island my family comes from they call themselves Endopi (Natives) as apposed to those from other parts of Greece. In Makedonia there are endopi (Natives) of differing stock. One of those stocks are Greeks.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      #25
                      Nikola what do you think of this strategy already achieved over 130 countries around the world recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.This is all the more reason for the name negotiations to cease don't you think it would be an idea to inform your good greek buddies.Another thing now that your seen the main strategy Greece's insistence on a name change to enter Nato or EU does not hold any water.
                      Also it is my belief that the name discussions is not a two way dispute as Macedonia has not got a dispute with the name only Greece has the problem supposedly.
                      Another thing Greece is doing is bullying Macedonia and implying to enter nato or eu by placing extra conditions on Macedonia.Might I say in the annals of history the practice of forcing one to change their name has been unheard of.
                      Clearly Greece must learn to behave in a world of nations where Macedonia is recognized fully by her proper name.What is Greece scared of that the world will find out that Greece's claim there are no Macedonians is false,that the 1912 division of Macedonia to 3 countries was a sham for a land grab.A a strategist you better check your history it says Macedonia was clearly occupied and people were affected by atrocities of exile ,assimilation,genocide,racial cleansing etc.One last point we as the real Macedonians have the truth on our side.You sir have the opposite on your side what possible advantage do you have when you represent falsity,lying,deceit,thieving etc an antithesis of being everything Macedonian.(anti Macedonian).Macedonia needs more respect actually should get more respect from its neighbours as its the right thing to do.Don't expect Macedonia to do everything like capitulate but what effort is Greece making?
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #26
                        Nikola what do you think of this strategy already achieved over 130 countries around the world recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.This is all the more reason for the name negotiations to cease don't you think it would be an idea to inform your good greek buddies.Another thing now that your seen the main strategy Greece's insistence on a name change to enter Nato or EU does not hold any water.
                        Also it is my belief that the name discussions is not a two way dispute as Macedonia has not got a dispute with the name only Greece has the problem supposedly.
                        Another thing Greece is doing is bullying Macedonia and implying to enter nato or eu by placing extra conditions on Macedonia.Might I say in the annals of history the practice of forcing one to change their name has been unheard of.
                        Clearly Greece must learn to behave in a world of nations where Macedonia is recognized fully by her proper name.What is Greece scared of that the world will find out that Greece's claim there are no Macedonians is false,that the 1912 division of Macedonia to 3 countries was a sham for a land grab.A a strategist you better check your history it says Macedonia was clearly occupied and people were affected by atrocities of exile from thir place of birth ,assimilation,genocide,racial cleansing etc.One last point we as the real Macedonians have the truth on our side.Do you know that the Macedonians were indigenous to their place of residence.You sir have the opposite on your side what possible advantage do you have when you represent falsity,lying,deceit,thieving etc an antithesis of being everything but Macedonian.(anti Macedonian).Macedonia needs more respect actually should get more respect from its neighbours as its the right thing to do.Don't expect Macedonia to do everything like capitulate but what effort is Greece making?The reason why I'm asking is think about how Greece came into holding 51% of Macedonia by illegal means.I would regard that as a poor strategy on their part as they will be hounded forever by what they did.During the 19 and 20th centuries a lot of countries had their borders revised for no other reason than a landgrab.This was a very poor strategy by Greece as it can't live with itself to even admit what it has done.As I said the Macedonians have the TRUTH on their side,You don't.Go back & tell your govt to desist with the name change as its pointless given the circumstances.
                        Last edited by George S.; 05-21-2014, 12:38 PM.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Sweet Sixteen
                          Banned
                          • Jan 2014
                          • 203

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post

                          You probably even have a reason why Greece stopped calling the region Macedonia for a while.
                          I repeat: Greece NEVER stopped calling its Macedonian region as Macedonia, either for while or for long. NEVER.

                          Comment

                          • Nikola Gruevski
                            Banned
                            • May 2014
                            • 17

                            #28
                            Originally posted by George S. View Post
                            Nikola what do you think of this strategy already achieved over 130 countries around the world recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name.This is all the more reason for the name negotiations to cease don't you think it would be an idea to inform your good greek buddies.Another thing now that your seen the main strategy Greece's insistence on a name change to enter Nato or EU does not hold any water.
                            George S, acquiring bilateral relations with other countries under the constitutional name, I think currently 130, is so that the Republic of Macedonia can request the UN to accept it under its constitutional name. The strategy was that it would be a fait accompli and Greece would have no choice but to accept it. This was Branko Crvenkovski & Nikola Gruevski's strategy. You would think that it would work!?




                            As well the Republic of Macedonia participated in the Iraq War and the Bush Administration was your strongest supporter for both NATO and EU entry. The Republic of Macedonia never felt like it had to really negotiate with Greece. There was always the Double Formula solution where the Republic of Macedonia use its constitutional name everywhere but Greece, because as you just said,The Republic of Macedonia does not have a name issue, Greece does. But Greece does not have an issue with NATO and EU entry The Republic of Macedonia does. The Republic of Macedonia also has an Albanian issue, and now a Republic of Bulgaria issue and once the Greek elections are over The Republic of Macedonia will have a Golden Dawn issue.


                            utrinski.mk

                            Athens - If lawmakers Golden Dawn set foot in Brussels after the European Parliament elections, will not allow admission to our country in the EU under the name Macedonia. The name dispute will be one of the major topics that will address the Greek neo-Nazi party if you enter this European institution next four years.

                            "We need to stop mockery of the name. Skopje, if you want to enter the EU and other organization, need to stop thinking like this and forget the name Macedonia or any adjective. "The name Macedonia is one and belongs only to the region of Greek Macedonia, which is," said the MP of the Golden Dawn, Ilias Panajotaros, when asked what would be their stance on Macedonia's EU if entering the European Parliament.

                            Gligorov, the man everyone here calls a traitor was simply a very realistic man that loved his country. He would have compromised early on and Greece would lost. Samaras in a video said that time is on Greece's side so unlike Papandreou would not meet with Gruevski. As the Republic of Macedonia had no interest to negotiate so too Samaras was not interested in play acting.

                            Gruevski's strategy was this:

                            This and many many more buildings further isolated the Republic of Macedonia after 2008 rather than isolating Greece. Rather than waiting for NATO to put Greece in its place after 2008 Bucharest, Gruevski took a NATO member to the World Court and so NATO closed ranks as they saw this as an threat to NATO process.

                            The Republic of Macedonia re-elected Gruevski a Prime Minister whom no Greek Prime Minister will welcome onto Greek soil. Everyone on this forum will realize that they have got their wish and the negotiations are in all practical purposes over. They do not exist anymore.


                            No Greek Government will now consider "Northern", "North", "Upper", "Higher", "Smaller", "Vardar" nor anything else with the recognizable term "Macedonia" in it. Your government has misplayed its hand.

                            Any one of the prefixes above are as the Greek Government stated in so many times, "A starting point for negotiations..." not the final name that they will settle on.

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              #29
                              you know that Greece mellowed its stance when president mitsotakis was in power.He said Macedonia can call herself that but under greek conditions.Thats why there is an insistence on suffixes & prefixes on the name.reviously no one would ccept use of word Macedonia.Did you know gruevski put forth name to Athens as republic of Macedonia (skopje) apparently Greece refused.You know what Greece wants is to change the name
                              a name like north Macedonia funny for a country name would leave Greece with a monopoly over the name.Or any change would give Greece an upper hand.
                              Also you know that there is a principle of sef identification.You are who you identify.
                              As well the result of 130 countries means Greece has virtually lost the battle.I remember reading at one of the websites from an embassy that Greece was considering throwing in the proverbial towel.also recently they thought of giving up the name talks as they were
                              boring.So there is a weakening of their strategy but its still line in the sand stuff.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Nikola Gruevski
                                Banned
                                • May 2014
                                • 17

                                #30
                                Mitsotaki!!!!

                                That is ancient history. Samaras is a hardliner with this issue. Do you believe that any Greek politician will back-down now and let The Republic of Macedonia get anything?

                                I was counting the the initial poll results and Golden Dawn looks to win 26 seats in Greek parliament and maybe 6 in the European Parliament.

                                Greek total military for is 461,600
                                Republic of Macedonia is 12,850

                                Greece has strategic ports in Makedonia, Attiki and Krete. Alliances with Israel, partnerships with Russia, Historic ties with France and England

                                If I was Germany I would know which country to pressure, and it would not be a NATO and EU member.


                                372 Universities scholar from universities from around the world wrote to Obama.

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