Macedonia and the European Union

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  • Currency Trader
    Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 172

    RtG

    Before I answer your statements, which you seem to refer my name to it, I think you have a whole host of unanswered questions from your previous claims.


    Here are the unanswered questions:

    1. How much is the EU debt for Macedonia?

    2. What kind of debt are you referring to?

    3. For what specific reasons will the foreign debt triple?

    4. How did you arrive to a ”tripling” of debt - Do you have an economic model?

    5. Every country has some form of debt on their national balance sheets, so WHY should Macedonia not have any debt, even if the debt is in EUR?

    6. Anybody can post a chart, but what do you actually UNDERSTAND from the Bulgarian chart that you like?

    7. What specifically has EU created for Bulgaria that you call "pretty picture of the magic"?

    8. Which labour laws would make Macedonia less competitive if they were to join EU?

    9. Which EU regulations would make Macedonia less flexible that you are referring to?


    Added question:

    10. In what way has the economic potentials (regarding EU) been vague as communicated by Macedonian government officials?




    .

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      What possible trade can macedonia have with the eu.I think macedonia is more hoping to get handouts.Is there such a thing as handouts with no strings attached.If macedonia has any wealth such as resources they may be up for exploitation.
      If macedonia becomes a member state of the eu then macedonia will get some of the debt the eu has by sharing it around.
      Various members from the mto have shown that other members like greece etc come to macedonia because the prices back home are so high that they even buy their petrol in macedonia.CT also you forget the impact of high unemployment in the eu greece has nearly 18% & rising,Bulgaria is high & so are the rest of the eu.THe other thing is the currency of the eu is falling that is the value is falling it's worth less & less like it used to.Eventually CT that will be the end of the EU it will sink into oblivion as it was prophseised in the bible CT.I forgot to ask ct do you read the prophecy where the eu is the resurrected holy roman empire.(It won't last long).THe fact that macedonia want's to join or not join does not make a scintilla of difference to the union.BUt it does make a difference to the macedonian nation & that is our name.
      Last edited by George S.; 04-23-2011, 03:17 AM.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • George S.
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 10116

        I forgot to mention CT i don't have the figures infront of me but the comparison of the various deficits of member states of the eu compared to their gdp is very shockingYou shoulg go & check them if you havent.
        Also there are reports that some eu members are doing much better than the other members because they are closer to china.The twelve new member states of Central and Eastern Europe have enjoyed a higher average percentage growth rate than their Western European counterparts. Notably the Baltic states have achieved massive GDP growth, with Latvia topping 11%, close to China, the world leader at 9% on average for the past 25 years (though these gains have been in great part cancelled by the late-2000's recession). Reasons for this massive growth include government commitments to stable monetary policy, export-oriented trade policies, low flat-tax rates and the utilisation of relatively cheap labour. For the last year (2009), Poland had the biggest GDP growth from all the states in EU (1,7%). The current map of EU growth is one of huge regional variation, with the larger economies suffering from stagnant growth and the new nations enjoying sustained, robust economic growth. Although EU27 GDP is on the increase, the percentage of Gross world product is decreasing due to the emergence of economic powers such as China, India and Brazil. In the medium to long term, the EU will be looking to increase GDP growth in Italy and the UK and stabilise growth in the new Central and Eastern European states to ensure sustained economic prosperity.
        So a lot of so called economic prosperity is short lived & cannot be fully attributed just because one is a member of the eu.
        Also you'll notice allready the larger members like germany have moved the manufacturing bases to south america where labour is cheap & also the chinese are also biting into their manufacturing because of lower prices.The Eu cannot possibly compete for long with countries like china.
        The only thing to export would be material resources because they just can't compete with china.
        Last edited by George S.; 04-23-2011, 03:39 AM.
        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
        GOTSE DELCEV

        Comment

        • indigen
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 1558

          Originally posted by Currency Trader View Post
          This topic has been lifted from the prior topic of "Macedonians against NATO membership if we have to change the name".

          The tile subject is certainly interesting and important to native Macedonians and Macedonian politicians - Although, diaspora Macedonians would also welcome a discussion on the title of this subject.

          ***************
          No one has been able to show that E.U membership will NOT benefit Macedonia economically.
          In fact it has been repeated time and again but numerous characters land on MTO and then, without bothering to read through the forum posts and topics, keep repeating the same (or similar) line on both NATO and EU membership, i.e. pro membership at the cost of further (and most likely fatal) national deconstruction of the Macedonian entity and identity. Sometimes it appears like it is an organised plot to push some political deconstruction agenda of the VASSALS in Skopje and their IC (US/NATO/EU) puppet masters.

          Below is a repost of what I am sure you would have read by now and that, IMO, covers your question, among others, rather well:

          Relevant topical excerpt:
          Myth number 3: EU Accession is Macedonia’s ticket to instant and sustained prosperity

          The EU is in the throes of a life-threatening crisis and the entire enlargement project is in ever-growing doubt. Even if the EU were to emerge unscathed from this predicament, its harried officials still regard the Western Balkans as a cesspit, an Ottoman-Byzantine-Oriental Muslim-infested relic in the heart of an otherwise civilized, genteel, and Christian Europe (read: West). The more bigoted of the EU members are going to drag the negotiations with the likes of Macedonia as they have been doing with Turkey for decades now.

          Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is
          .
          -----------

          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
          Truthfully GS, I think your heart says no to FYROM but your brain accepts it.
          I am not going to point the finger at you for this. You are like one million other Macedonians on the matter I suspect.

          Vangelovski makes a point regarding NATO and the onus of justifying membership resting with pro FYROM membership Macedonians. EU membership is the same argument and I have spent some time de-constructing the merits of EU membership.

          If you are going to play Greece in a game of devil's advocate, my question is as follows:

          Will war begin if Macedonia, as a sovereign nation, insists on maintaining its identity and calling itself Macedonian? What will the worst consequences be if Macedonia says it wants to be called Macedonia from now on?
          The following blog article by Sam Vaknin might be worth taking into account:

          Greek-Macedonian Name Issue Myths Debunked
          blog:10811:0::0

          Posted Feb 19, 2011 by ■ Sam Vaknin in World

          In the absence of the glare of the global media, its coverage and exposure, the fourth-rate diplomats that stand in for the International Community in Macedonia ineffectually cajole its government with thinly veiled threats, Cassandra-like apocalyptic scenarios, and verbal bribery. To achieve their aims, they propagate three myths (not to say deceptions):


          Myth number 1: The conflict initiated by Greece is “normal” and not intractable

          The truth is that the “Name Issue” cannot be resolved because the diametrically-opposing positions of the parties occupy the same semantic and geopolitical space. Both fear for their cohesion and identity should they compromise.

          The Greek demand - that Macedonia and, consequently, the Macedonians change their collective (national) name - is unreasonable ab initio. Unreasonable demands cannot be rendered reasonable by being modified or amended. Greek “flexibility” and “reasonableness” are, therefore, smokescreens behind which lurk irrationality and extremism.
          Sovereign polities should never succumb to blackmail and extortion: not because of ethical or moral considerations or matters of national pride, but because concessions only tend to enhance the insatiability of blackmailers and extortionists. Macedonia gave in to Greek blackmail once (with regards to its flag), yet this did not slake Greece’s thirst for more.

          The name issue negotiations consume vast and scarce resources, especially in terms of human capital. Macedonia is a poor country and this Greek diversion is proving to be lethal as far as its economic development and geopolitical prospects go.

          In truth, Macedonia is winning the diplomatic and public opinion battle the world over. More than 120 members of the United Nations recognize it by its constitutional name and not a week passes by without a commiserating op-ed in some prime medium in the West. Greece looks bad: an extortionate bully in the throes of economic mayhem and domestic terrorism. Faced with such an asymmetry in global sympathy, why should Macedonia be the one to throw in the towel?


          Myth number 2: A lack of progress (read: Macedonian capitulation) on the name issue will foster inter-ethnic unrest and worse

          Ardent, well-choreographed protestations aside, the Albanians in Macedonia ought to be delighted with the lack of progress on both NATO and EU accession. The overwhelming majority of Albanians in Western Macedonia are enmeshed in activities which can only be charitably described as “informal”. The Albanians are the engine that runs the grey and black and criminal economies in Macedonia. EU accession will put an abrupt stop to all these lucrative endeavours and unravel networks that took decades to build and maintain.


          Furthermore, the Albanian insurgency in 2001 was the outcome of copious nods and winks (and dollops of materiel) on the part of the United States and, to a lesser extent, the EU. No such support, implicit or explicit, is to be found today: the International Community is firmly and irrevocably committed to the Ohrid Framework Agreement and will not allow the Albanians to use weapons to try to alter its generous terms.

          Albanian posturing concerning the Macedonian procrastination with regards to the Name Issue has to do with internecine strife between the two big Albanian parties: DUI and DPA. They both leverage the name issue and threaten civil war in order to re-divide the spoils of government on all levels.


          Myth number 3: EU Accession is Macedonia’s ticket to instant and sustained prosperity

          The EU is in the throes of a life-threatening crisis and the entire enlargement project is in ever-growing doubt. Even if the EU were to emerge unscathed from this predicament, its harried officials still regard the Western Balkans as a cesspit, an Ottoman-Byzantine-Oriental Muslim-infested relic in the heart of an otherwise civilized, genteel, and Christian Europe (read: West). The more bigoted of the EU members are going to drag the negotiations with the likes of Macedonia as they have been doing with Turkey for decades now.

          Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.

          [....]

          Digital Journal is a digital media news network with thousands of Digital Journalists in 200 countries around the world. Join us!


          For fair use only.

          -------------

          RTG, I think you should look into changing the topic title to something more a appropriate, e.g. "How Macedonian shoots itself in the foot/head by going to the ICJ"!

          Comment

          • Makedonska_Kafana
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2010
            • 2642

            CT, please watch this another 100 times until it begins to make sense ..

            YouTube - 'Who the Hell You Think You Are?' Nigel Farage throws egg in Eurocrat faces

            YouTube - PBS- Obama Puppetmaster George Soros calls for Carbon Taxes and New World Order
            Last edited by Makedonska_Kafana; 04-23-2011, 02:41 PM.
            http://www.makedonskakafana.com

            Macedonia for the Macedonians

            Comment

            • Onur
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 2389

              France threatens to suspend EU Schengen Treaty

              As everyone predicted when the first rebellious movement started in Tunisia, 10.000s of illegal immigrants rushed in to the Italy. It looks like Italian government gave Schengen visas to ~26.000 Tunisian and Libyan immigrants because it`s obvious that these people just wanna go to France where biggest middle-eastern population resides in EU.

              They let them go from Italy to France but French authorities didn't allow them to enter France even tough these people had valid Schengen visas given by Italy;

              France threatens to 'suspend' Schengen Treaty
              France has threatened to abandon European Union freedom of movement by “suspending” Europe’s Schengen Treaty due to an influx of Tunisian and Libyan migrants from Italy.

              Italy has given up to 26,000 illegal migrants six-month residence permits, allowing them to travel freely in the border-free Schengen zone, which covers all EU countries except Britain and Ireland.

              The decision to issue travel documents to the Tunisians and other Arab migrants has triggered a French warning over the 1995 treaty.

              ''It seems to us that we need to think about a mechanism that would allow us, when there is a systematic disruption at one of the EU’s external borders, to intervene with a temporary suspension for as long as the disruption lasts,” said an Elysée source.

              Under the Schengen agreement, citizens in 25 EU nations are allowed to travel across borders without having their passports checked. Both Britain and Ireland chose not to join.

              Germany has also threatened to reinstate border checks “against the interests” of the EU’s free movement zone in the row with Italy over the residency permits.

              The Italian authorities have insisted other European countries must help take the burden of refugees landing on the island of Lampedusa, off Tunisia.

              Last weekend, French authorities, citing risks of disturbances to public order, refused to allow trains carrying the migrants to cross its border with Italy at Ventimiglia.

              The border reopened to rail traffic within 24 hours but only after Rome lodged a formal diplomatic protest withParis.

              22 Apr 2011

              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...en-Treaty.html


              Now Italy started to think about whether EU membership has any value and the European Union is really an union at all after the collapse of visa free regime;

              Italian minister questions value of EU membership

              A dozen EU states rallied behind France on Monday (11 April) in a dispute with Italy over Rome's granting of temporary residence permits to Tunisian immigrants, warning of the "collapse" of the Schengen area and the re-introduction of borders.

              Speaking after a meeting of interior ministers in Luxembourg, Italian minister Roberto Maroni from the anti-immigrant Lega Nord party, said his country had to "consider if it is still worth being part of the EU," since nobody wanted to help shoulder the immigration burden.

              "It's fine when Italy contributes to euro bail-outs, to wars, but on this very specific issue of helping us out, EU states are absolutely not willing to show solidarity," he said on his way out of the ministers' meeting.

              The Italian government last Thursday issued a decree granting temporary residence to the roughly 23,000 Tunisian migrants who arrived via the tiny island of Lampedusa. But the permits are seen as a free pass to France, with the French authorities having already sent back hundreds of Tunisians at the Italian border.

              Germany, France and Austria, along with other countries such as the Netherlands, Finland, Belgium and Slovakia, view Schengen as a matter of trust among member states. Italy is "undermining this basic principle," one diplomat present at the "heated debate" said.

              Austria, which shares a land border with Italy, threatened to re-impose borders. Interior minister Maria Fekter warned of the "collapse of the Schengen system" if Italy's behaviour is tolerated.

              "What Italy is doing is using a national emergency law for temporary protection in order to politicise the whole Tunisian immigration issue so that everyone in the EU is affected by it. They've succeeded in doing that, but now we expect that they stick to the rules," German interior minister Hans-Peter Friedrich said during a press briefing in Luxembourg, at the end of a long debate over Mediterranean migration.

              "The issuing of mass permits is a violation of the Schengen spirit. If tens of thousands were to be granted these permits, then it would not be only France, Germany and Austria to re-instate borders, but also countries further away. Then we would lose what we have achieved with Schengen," Friedrich said.

              The only country supporting Italy in the call for solidarity from other EU countries was Malta, in a similar situation with more than 800 refugees from Libya arriving to the island in the past week. Both Malta and Italy asked the European commission to trigger the activation of a special refugee directive - an EU 2001 law set up after the Kosovo war but never used - for people fleeing the war zone in Libya. The application of the directive would automatically give everyone escaping such an area refugee status right across the EU.

              But they were isolated in their call.

              "There was a very strong majority in favour of the fact that this directive can be used, but it is too premature at the moment. There would have to be a massive influx of refugees," home affairs commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom said during a press briefing. Later on, she insisted that "nobody wants Italy to leave the EU, it is a founding member and a great asset."

              Ministers did agree to alleviate Malta's strained asylum capacities by prolonging a resettlement programme. Several member states offered to relocate some of the mostly sub-Saharan refugees who managed to escape Libya and cross the Mediterranean. Germany offered to take 100 people, Belgium, Hungary, Sweden, Portugal, Spain and Norway also expressed willingness to help.

              "Ministers were very clear in separating the two issues. Malta's plight with refugees from Libya is one thing - the island is tiny and for them, 800 people is a lot," said one EU diplomat. "But they did not agree with Italy, a country of 60 million, to claim that it needs the special protection directive to deal with economic migrants, not refugees," the source added.

              "Maroni was the only one mixing up the two issues - irregular migration, for people with no right to claim asylum and who have to be returned to their home country - and refugees from Somalia, Eritrea and so one, who were stuck in Libya and have managed to escape, but cannot be sent to their home countries."

              11.04.2011

              http://euobserver.com/22/32155


              Pro-EU British journalist from "the independent" questions the future of EU after these recent events;
              European unity is an ideal that is being crushed by crude nationalism

              RIP, the European Dream. Born in Rome March 1957; died at the unlovely Franco-Italian border railway station of Ventimiglia, April 2011. OK, d'accord, ist ja gut, bene, the demise of the European adventure has been forecast many times before.

              The European Union as an institution will, doubtless, stumble and rumble on for a little while yet.

              But the Great European Idea – the proposition that 400,000,000 Europeans will be safer, happier and more prosperous if they work together rather than against each other – has never faced so many overlapping threats to its survival.

              And the greatest of these threats may be indifference. To be passionate about "Europe" these days, you have to detest the whole idea. The voice of pragmatic, moderate support for the European project is scarcely heard. Even the countries that invented the idea of "ever closer union" between the peoples of Europe are now sticking it to each other gleefully like kids in a playground.

              France halted all rail travel between Ventimiglia and Menton on the Côte d'Azur for six hours on Sunday to prevent a "dignity train" of Italian left-wing activists and a few score Tunisians from entering France. Paris is also imposing systematic checks on all Tunisians crossing the French land border with Italy. More than 1,700 have already been sent back.

              This shatters the spirit, but not, apparently, the confused and arcane letter of the Schengen agreement which removed all document checks at continental EU borders in 1995. The passport-free "Schengen area", one of the greatest achievements of the EU, has since extended to 25 countries (but not Britain or Ireland).

              More than 25,000, mostly Tunisian, refugees have fled the turmoil in North Africa. The Italian, Cypriot and Maltese governments complain that they have been unfairly abandoned by their EU partners to deal with this influx alone. They have a point. Is this what European solidarity is supposed to be about?

              In retaliation, Italy has written thousands of temporary travel papers for the refugees, which, it says, give them the right to travel anywhere within the Schengen area. France, Belgium and Germany complain that this amounts to a crude invitation to the refugees to push off to France, Belgium and Germany and vanish, illegally, into the local Tunisian communities. They also have a point.

              President Nicolas Sarkozy and Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, opportunistic showmen both, will doubtless find a form of words to "solve" the crisis when they meet in Rome on Tuesday. In the meantime, the Italian interior minister, Roberto Maroni, is even suggesting that Italy should consider leaving the EU.

              Mr Maroni is a member of the populist, xenophobic Northern League, with which Mr Berlusconi is allied. The Northern League's brand of middle-class intolerance can now be found, in various guises, all over Europe. (Its nearest British equivalent is Ukip.)

              Marine Le Pen leads some presidential polls in France with a programme that would, de facto, force her country to leave the EU. The Hungarian government has drawn up a crudely nationalist constitution, broadly incompatible with EU membership.

              The harmless and traditionally consensual Finns this week became the latest nation to flirt with smartly packaged populism and gut euro-hostility. One-fifth of electors voted for a hard right, anti-EU party, the "Real Finns". Meanwhile, the euro, the most ambitious of all symbols of European unity, stumbles from crisis to crisis.

              Assistance, with painful strings, has been given to debt-choked Greece, Ireland and Portugal. Such "handouts" have angered the middle-class populists of northern Europe, from the Daily Mail to the Real Finns.

              In truth, the doleful route imposed by the EU, and the IMF, to "save the euro" and to "help" the debt-afflicted nations seems suspiciously influenced by a desire to save the bad loans of German, French and, yes, British banks. Solidarity? Yes, but calculating solidarity.

              The crisis in euroland may or may not be more intractable than the "Schengen" crisis. Both are, symbolically and practically, very dangerous for the EU.

              These are not the usual EU quarrels over arcane procedures or financing. The euro and Schengen are two of the most visible achievements of the EU. To unwind either or both would be an admission that the whole European project has failed.

              All these crises are subtexts of a deeper, more existential crisis of faith in the European idea. That crisis has generated, or been compounded by, a crisis of European leadership.

              No one – not Angela Merkel, not Nicolas Sarkozy, certainly not Silvio Berlusconi, not yet at any rate David Cameron, seems to want to do more than float on the tide of events.

              The old federal European dream has been dead for years, whatever Ukip might say. The idea of a remote bureaucracy which imposes even a limited "Europe" from above is no longer acceptable. On the other hand, the old British idea of a looser, inter-governmental Europe – now the broad direction of travel – cannot replace all the EU treaties and institutions. Without a legal core, the project would fall apart.

              23 April 2011

              by John Lichfield

              http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...m-2273768.html
              So, I think we can say that EU even started to loose what they achieved previously.

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                EU is dying. If you cant see this happening, then you should be blind.

                The project of single constitution for all EU states failed miserably cuz it`s rejected in most of EU members.

                Their biggest project, common currency of Euro is in big crises and the single currency became a source of all problems instead of an achievement because these states are not united at all, all of them has their own rules and differences. For example, what are the common points in terms of economy and sociology between a German and a Greek or a Romanian?? Nothing at all!!! They live in a totally different world.

                Now we saw the death of visa free regime this week. France considers suspending Schengen system.

                Anti-EU political parties are on the rise in most of EU states, even in the ideological leader of EU, in France. Le Pen`s party is leading the polls in France and if they become ruling party, then you can be sure that it will be the day when EU project would totally collapse.


                Besides that, Currency Trader`s numbers and examples of economical growth of new member states is not valid anymore. Those are things of the past. Despite all that EU propaganda, more and more people started to realize that this unity is fake and ordinary German, British, French people doesn't wanna pay even one cent to Greece, Romania, Bulgaria or to Macedonia.
                Last edited by Onur; 04-23-2011, 04:37 PM.

                Comment

                • Currency Trader
                  Member
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 172

                  Onur said:

                  EU is dying. If you cant see this happening, then you should be blind.
                  I would disagree – Every country or union has its own issues to deal with. This is nothing new and Rome was not built overnight if that is what you believe. A union of such magnitude will take time to optimize or develop , in- particular the enforcement of rules and regulations as stipulated.


                  ***********

                  Onur said:

                  The project of single constitution for all EU states failed miserably cuz it`s rejected in most of EU members.
                  Constitutions are rarely written to be perfect for all inhabitants or members – fine tuning is usually a progress regardless if it’s in EU or anywhere else - Nonetheless, can you please share your definition of “most EU members” have rejected the economic union - Which are these most EU members?


                  **************

                  Onur said:

                  Their biggest project, common currency of Euro is in big crises
                  Quantify the definition of “Euro currency is in big crises” ?



                  *****************
                  Onur said:

                  the single currency became a source of all problems instead of an achievement because these states are not united at all, all of them has their own rules and differences. For example, what are the common points in terms of economy and sociology between a German and a Greek or a Romanian?? Nothing at all!!!

                  Give example of how the single currency became a source of “all problems”?

                  Secondly, you don’t have to use the single currency to be in EU, if that is perceived as an obstacle.

                  Moreover, having the right to set your own fiscal policy does not mean states are not united, if that’s what you suggest – Although, rules on fiscal discipline is something that needs to be further enhanced and enforced. As for common points between Germany, Greece and Romania, they share the vision and common goal to develop a union.


                  *********

                  Onur said:

                  Now we saw the death of visa free regime this week. France considers suspending Schengen system.
                  This has more to do with politics, just like in any other country.


                  ****************

                  Onur said:

                  Anti-EU political parties are on the rise in most of EU states, even in the ideological leader of EU, in France. Le Pen`s party is leading the polls in France and if they become ruling party, then you can be sure that it will be the day when EU project would totally collapse.
                  Again, politics – Opposition parties in politics have always existed, nothing new of any sort.


                  **************

                  Onur said:

                  Besides that, Currency Trader`s numbers and examples of economical growth of new member states is not valid anymore. Those are things of the past.

                  Past performance is not indicative of future performance - that goes for any country, company or Turkish football team.


                  ***************

                  Onur said:

                  Despite all that EU propaganda, more and more people started to realize that this unity is fake and ordinary German, British, French people doesn't wanna pay even one cent to Greece, Romania, Bulgaria or to Macedonia.
                  The unity of having a single currency is not fake, its real – Members are free to choose if they wish to be in the union - Not sure how you see it as “fake” – As for member states or ordinary people not wanting to pay one cent to Greece or other southern European countries, I can understand that. However, as with any country or union that aims to develop the future, differences will have to be ironed out and it takes time. New regulations on future bail-outs are setting strict conditions on fiscal discipline, a measure that it likely to lessen each country’s independence due to its fiscal mismanagement.



                  -
                  Last edited by Currency Trader; 04-23-2011, 11:39 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Currency Trader
                    Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 172

                    Indigen said/posted

                    The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.
                    Whoever wrote the above passage has missed one big point in all this. Before you can even become a member, the country will have to show some significant readiness and transformation which will be closely inspected that it can handle all or most areas as required. That means each candidate will have to demonstrate that it can absorb or handle 84,000 pages of acquis communautaire, environmental, sanitation or labour rules per EU. This process is lengthy and can take years, if not a full decade before the country is close to become a member. If all goes as it goes now, Macedonia will probably score well on these areas.

                    As for the argument that Macedonia’s industries will crumble in the face of European competition, which industries is the author talking about? Is the author suggesting that foreign competition will establish production inside Macedonia and thus knock-out domestic industries? Or is the author suggesting something else? Can you take his seat to answer these questions?

                    How did Bulgarian, Romanian, Slovenian, Greek industries handle European competition?

                    The above passage does not prove that Macedonia will not benefit economically from EU.


                    -

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      Originally posted by Currency Trader View Post

                      How did Bulgarian, Romanian, Slovenian, Greek industries handle European competition?

                      The above passage does not prove that Macedonia will not benefit economically from EU.


                      -
                      Im not sure if the greek example is a good one...what greek industry is there, apart from tourism, are there any other significant greek industries that aren't already heavily subsidised by the greek government to keep afloat...?

                      the greek economy is a basket case of biblical proportions and they've been in the EEC/EU for close to 3 decades...

                      Sure the EU will bring some immediate benefits, possibly improvements to some infrastructure projects, new signage around the place and some pretty new flags waving in the wind...

                      As for your other 3 examples, the Bulgaria's, Romania's and Slovenia's of the 'Union', I don't believe that they've been in the club for long enough to feel the full power of the Union in undermining local industry and living standards...

                      Comment

                      • Makedonska_Kafana
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2010
                        • 2642

                        Most, countries wish they could turn back the hand of time and never joined and now they're in the red forever. EU, has no chance!
                        http://www.makedonskakafana.com

                        Macedonia for the Macedonians

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          CT you forget macedonia is a small country In the scheme of things just a piddly one .Macedonia has got hardly anything to offer except it's hoping to get handouts from the eu.CT you are just putting a positive spin on it & you are unwilling to see the other side of the coin of what could membership of eu could or could not mean.I do mean unwilling.So ct whats the point of arguing over something that may not even happen.Even if it did happen its not going to matter much.MK is right a lot of countries are questioning why they ever joined the eu.You are just ignoring plain facts that are obvious chinks in the eu.It's not as rosy as you make it out to be.Macedonia should stay put & it can create it's own prosperity for itself it doesn't need to be in a sham organization such as the eu.
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            Costs of Joining the EURO
                            Cost of replacing currency’s and adjusting machines, however this is a one off cost
                            Loss of autonomy over economic policy. With the ECB setting a common interest rate for the whole area, countries have lost an important part of their Monetary policy
                            This is a major problem if a countries economy is at a different stage in the business cycle. For instance in 2005, Ireland and Spain were growing quite fast and need higher interest rates to control inflation than other countries who need lower interest rates. Therefore with low interest rate Ireland might experience inflation
                            On the other hand, in 2009, Ireland and Spain were experiencing a deeper recession than the rest of the Eurozone area. They needed lower interest rates and depreciation, but, other countries didn't.
                            In 1992 the UK benefited from leaving the ERM in order to have lower interest rates and come out of recession. This showed that countries economies may not have converged and a single policy could be harmful
                            Loss of Devaluation as economic management policy. As well as losing an independent Monetary policy countries cannot use their exchange rate. Business would argue Sterling is overvalued at the moment if we joined the Euro at this rate our exports would be uncompetitive
                            Also govts couldn’t devalue the E.R to overcome balance of payments problems.
                            Countries will lose some independence over Fiscal Policy. This is because of the growth and stability pact.( e.g. no country is allowed to borrow more than 3% of its GDP. This means that they will have to try and maintain the economy at a similar stage to other countries. E.G. Ireland had high growth and was criticised for increasing spending, (which increases AD).
                            Asymmetric Shocks. If one country experienced an external shock it might need a different response. But this is not possible with a common currency. E.g. German reunification required higher interest rates in order to help reduce inflation but this was not good for many other countries.
                            An oil shock would affect net importers like France more than Norway and the UK who export a lot.
                            Monetary Policy will have different effects in different countries. For example the UK is sensitive to changes in the interest rate because many people have mortgages.
                            The EURO has been quite unstable against the dollar, whilst Sterling has been quite stable. Joining the EURO could therefore increase E.R. instability against over currencies
                            The ECB is less transparent in their decision making, for example they do not produce monthly minutes, this makes interest rate changes less predictable
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • Makedonska_Kafana
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 2642

                              CT, has been a huge supporter of the EU on every Macedonian forum to the point it seems he could gain personally through investments.

                              Facts, don't lie the EU is a HUGE mistake by any country let alone a tiny 2,000,000.
                              http://www.makedonskakafana.com

                              Macedonia for the Macedonians

                              Comment

                              • Currency Trader
                                Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 172

                                Phoenix said:

                                Im not sure if the greek example is a good one...what greek industry is there, apart from tourism, are there any other significant greek industries that aren't already heavily subsidised by the greek government to keep afloat...?

                                Which industries do you have in-mind that is heavily subsidized?
                                Not sure if their transport, shipping, chemicals, metal products or mining businesses are heavily subsidized.



                                *******************

                                Phoenix said:

                                As for your other 3 examples, the Bulgaria's, Romania's and Slovenia's of the 'Union', I don't believe that they've been in the club for long enough to feel the full power of the Union in undermining local industry and living standards...
                                Slovenia has been in the union since 2004 while Bulgaria and Romania since 2007 – The power of the union to “undermine” locals industry and living standards, as you refer to, may vary depending on how the country handles its integration and how prepared they have been. Some countries may experience immediate shocks to their system, while others are gradually adapting EU standards of competitiveness. Slovenia is said to be one of these countries that have made a smooth transition.

                                Countries in the union whose industries are being undermined from sources inside the union, are likely less sufficient and competitive. As each of these countries become more open it puts more pressure on domestic enterprises to cope with competition. The EU union may not be any different from the issue of “globalized economy” that developed during the 90’s. Inefficient countries will have to rethink their economies and state structures.





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