Bulgars in Macedonia (1919 NY Times article)

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  • Onur
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 2389

    #16
    Originally posted by mail2onur View Post
    Direct link to "online archive catalog search";
    http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/katalog/

    I just did a small research for you guys

    I searched the term "Makedon" and total of 4000 documents came up.

    I noticed, after the year 1870s, I see reports of ottoman agents which mentions about Greek and Bulgarians are in dispute with each other about who will occupy Macedonia and how. I see mentions of Bulgar and Greek agents meeting and talking about how they share the macedonia lands between them;

    Date: 12/S /1311 (Hicri), File #:7, Folder #:6, Group Code: Y..PRK.AZN.
    Makedonya'yı Bulgarlaştırma faaliyeti . Sofya'da müebbed kalebendliğe çarptırılan İvanco veled Gregori'nin af talebi.

    Date: 29/M /1312 (Hicrî), File #:607, Folder #:6 , Group Code: A.}MKT.MHM.
    Arnavudluk ve Makedonya ahalisi arasında Panhelenizm akımını yaymak amacıyla çoğunluğu Osmanlı tabiiyyetindeki Arnavudlar tarafından kurulan cemiyetin fesat hareketleri.
    Translations:
    Date : 1893, File #:7, Folder #:6, Group Code: Y..PRK.AZN.
    The rebellion movements in Macedonia for Bulgarian profit. One of rebels named "Ivanco veled Gregorie" arrested in Sofia for involving these crimes and condemned to imprisonment.

    Date: 1894, File #:607, Folder #:6 , Group Code: A.}MKT.MHM.
    The progression report of the recently formed association by Albanians, in the name of Hellenization(convert them as Greeks) of the Albanian and Macedonian people.




    Date: 24/S /1291 (Hicrî), File #:18, Folder #:37, Group Code: MF.MKT.
    Girid'den getirilen ve Makedonya hükümdarlarından Philip'in meskukatından olan altının müzede örneği bulunduğundan sahibine iadesi ve kazı çalışmalarının da tatil edilmesi.
    Date:1874, File #:18, Folder #:37, Group Code: MF.MKT.
    The golden artifacts of Macedonian king Phillip which found/discovered in Crete and deportation to the artifacts to the museum. Further digging at the site is prohibited to secure the possible rest of artifacts which can be find at the digging site.
    Last edited by Onur; 04-04-2010, 02:27 PM.

    Comment

    • Onur
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2010
      • 2389

      #17
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      I have a copy of Evliya Celebi's book of travels, where the texts are displayed in the original Ottoman Turkish with Arabic script, Ottoman Turkish transliterated with modern Turkish script, and an English translation. Several Turks found the texts very difficult to understand, so the necessity of Turkish language experts is to be expected.

      Evliya Çelebi was a wealthy and very well educated Turkish traveler who journeyed throughout the territories of the Ottoman Empire and the neighbouring lands(means whole of EU, north Africa, most of Asia) over a period of forty years at the year 1650s.

      After 40 years of travelling, he wrote a huge travelers book which consists 10 volumes. Especially his notes for all Balkanic territories are very detailed.

      His notes also reveal the source of todays widely disputed "mysterious Ethiopian roots" of some people at todays Greece.

      In his notes about Crete and surrounding areas, he says that nearly all of inhabitants are the African/Asian dark skinned, curly haired and Jew look-a-like immigrants who came from a seaport of Egypt in vast numbers(At the summer of 1667 or 1670, i dont remember exactly now)
      Last edited by Onur; 04-04-2010, 03:01 PM.

      Comment

      • Serdarot
        Member
        • Feb 2010
        • 605

        #18
        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        ...Several Turks found the texts very difficult to understand, so the necessity of Turkish language experts is to be expected.
        i´ve met a Turkish guy here in Hamburg, his mother is from a family of a "Seljanik Turkce" / "Rumely Turcke" (Turks from Solun, from Macedonia)

        probably she´s from a family of mixed marriage between Turks and Macedonian Muslims, i wasn´t asking too many questions about her grandfathers etc., couse she said she is Turkish, and i respected that

        it is also not so important.

        important is the following:

        my wife made traditional Macedonian "Pogacha" as one of the presents we brought. when they saw it, they said "oh, Po´ácha" , and we laughed, and said yes, Pogacha...

        they call it Po´acha on Turkish.

        me and her could understand eachother on "arhaic" Macedonian Dialect (very similar to the dialect spoken in Mariovo - Lerin and some other parts of Macedonia).

        And both, as well as my friend, his mother too, told me the same, that that dialect, was the home-spoken language by their ancestors.

        Their MOTHER LANGUAGE? (named with "modern" term.)

        And what is more interesting, she said it was widely spoken, and it is still widely spoken, by Macedonians as well by Turks.

        and to connect it with the topic:

        as well as widely version of "Koine" was created when the need for such a language was there -> when the settlers from africa and asia were in such a number -> similar story happened with the Turks and the real-original Bulgars.

        "dialects" were created with the time, so they could understand eachother.

        when the Turks came in the teritories of today mediteranian Turkey, they didnt found desert, neither they created one

        Bulgarians too.

        They both came on a teritory that was center or important part of several very powerfull empires / other kinds of states, that had all the benchmarks of a high developed civilizations.

        The (hi)story of the Turks is very long and complicated, not the place to discuss it too much here, what is important, is that they came, and as they spread in the provinces, they mixed with the local population, mostly with those who converted to Islam.

        And the "languages" evolved, "new" were created, some got little bit forgoten (almost no1 spoke "greek" 200 years ago, most of the "greeks" had to learn it, etc...)

        So we need not only experts in Turkish, we need experts in each language / dialect that was spoken / used on the Balkans, and experts in many other sciences, who will do serious work and explain many unanswered questions

        Not to "prove" diferences and find some "grounds" for claiming something, like the "greeks" are doing, not only to "defend the name", but to get more material on the things that are connecting us, and to use it for further cooperation between the modern Balkan Nations, and as a powerfull "weapon" against our enemies.

        Remember, Plato?

        more or less:

        If those who live north of Olimpus, who are nummerious as the leaves, unite (under one leader), there is no force that can defeat them.

        Same rule for today, if we who share blood and culture on the Balkans (and maybe little bit further ) unite...

        Who will need EU and NATO?
        Bratot:
        Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

        Comment

        • Serdarot
          Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 605

          #19
          Originally posted by mail2onur View Post
          Evliya Çelebi ...

          In his notes about Crete and surrounding areas, he says that nearly all of inhabitants are the African/Asian dark skinned, curly haired and Jew look-a-like immigrants who came from a seaport of Egypt in vast numbers(At the summer of 1667 or 1670, i dont remember exactly now)
          this was well known fact, untill the creation of the modern myth abouth the Ancient Greece and the Greeks

          i´ve mentioned only few sources on this forum, many are mentioned by other members, and there are unnumbered sources that tell the same story.

          The Ancient Greeks were "newborn" nation -> mixure between afro-asiatic settlers (same as Celeby writes) , with small part of the natives.

          Gar-ci = ofensive term, "blacks", "niggers", "gjupci" , some of us still call the "gjupci"*

          Couse they origin particulary from Gyupta.

          Egipet and India were both called Gyupta

          further, we have :

          Makedon-ci
          Afrikan-ci
          German-ci
          ov-ci
          mese-ci

          it is clear "-ci" is used for plural and it is used to form a "etnonim" or a term who describe group of people or "family" name.

          like

          Metal-ci
          Bobev-ci i Robev-ci
          Ajdu-ci
          Glupa-ci
          Luda-ci

          Gar-ci
          G´r-ci

          Gar = Kar = Black

          even in modern Turkish, Kara = Black

          Crno / Chrno / Cherno (black) also have roots - is connected with Kar / Gar.

          K <-> C

          Kar
          Car / Char
          Charnaya Zemia-Zemna / Charna Zemlja / Crna Zemja

          Gar- Garava - Garav - Gara - Kara -> in the macedonian dialects is widely used and still in usage, as well in some serbian dialects, mostly in vojvodina (the number of macedonian settlers there is very big...)

          My opinion -> Gar / Car / Kar = "proto-word" , pre-ancient word for black. Not to be connected only with one modern language.

          Should i mention that also in Tamil and Sanskrit kAr = Dark, Black, Blackness...?

          and now analize the name of the

          B´l-Gar
          Bratot:
          Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

          Comment

          • Serdarot
            Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 605

            #20
            also

            iz-GAR-a (iz-gor-ra)

            when something is burned, iz-GOR-eno, pretezno e CRNO

            Gor-(e)-no e GAR-no

            is-kar-a / iz-ga-ra = SKARA , GRILL, G´r-ill , Gar-il, Gor-il(o)

            not sure if it was Belchev who already wrote / spoke about that...

            even in the "western" languages

            ne-gro (gro = gor)
            ne-gar
            ni-ger
            "nigga(r)"

            so many Kara Gari
            Bratot:
            Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

            Comment

            • Onur
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2010
              • 2389

              #21
              Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
              my wife made traditional Macedonian "Pogacha" as one of the presents we brought. when they saw it, they said "oh, Po´ácha" , and we laughed, and said yes, Pogacha...

              they call it Po´acha on Turkish.

              me and her could understand eachother on "arhaic" Macedonian Dialect (very similar to the dialect spoken in Mariovo - Lerin and some other parts of Macedonia).

              And both, as well as my friend, his mother too, told me the same, that that dialect, was the home-spoken language by their ancestors.

              Their MOTHER LANGUAGE? (named with "modern" term.)

              And what is more interesting, she said it was widely spoken, and it is still widely spoken, by Macedonians as well by Turks.

              Masallah kardas

              Hehe, Every Turkish person knows "Pogaca" mate . I guess you guys probably eat "Borek, kurambies, imam baildi, barbunia, kaurmas, pastourmas, musakas" as well, cooked in "Tentzeris"??? and eat "mezes" when you drink uzo/raki? or "revani, baklavas" with Tsai??? and then wash your hands with "sapuni"????

              This is what we do in Turkey. How many of these words are similar to you???


              Most of Balkan immigrant Turks, Macedonian and Albanians in Turkey lives in Aegean side And yes, we still preserve our culture and our own dialect. Its actually rare to find Balkan Turk in Germany because most of Turkish people in Germany are Kurdish citizens of Turkey.




              Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
              And the "languages" evolved, "new" were created, some got little bit forgoten (almost no1 spoke "greek" 200 years ago, most of the "greeks" had to learn it, etc...)

              So we need not only experts in Turkish, we need experts in each language / dialect that was spoken / used on the Balkans, and experts in many other sciences, who will do serious work and explain many unanswered questions

              Not to "prove" diferences and find some "grounds" for claiming something, like the "greeks" are doing, not only to "defend the name", but to get more material on the things that are connecting us, and to use it for further cooperation between the modern Balkan Nations, and as a powerfull "weapon" against our enemies.

              Remember, Plato?

              more or less:

              If those who live north of Olimpus, who are nummerious as the leaves, unite (under one leader), there is no force that can defeat them.

              Same rule for today, if we who share blood and culture on the Balkans (and maybe little bit further ) unite...

              Who will need EU and NATO?



              I agree to you %100. Even though most of EU and mainly Greece denies, ordinary people at Balkans lived together by being "Komshu" to each other for more than 500 years.

              At that time, most Christians in Anatolia could speak Turkish and most Turkish people at Balkans could speak Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian as well. My grandparents was able to speak Macedonian and Bulgarian too. I know, some of Greeks in today`s Greece still preserve their Anatolian culture and they teach Turkish to their kids.

              Unfortunately these people with rich culture didn't suit the idea of creating different nations and they had to suit and blend to the new societies.


              Whats important now, The fear and ideas of the politicians of 20th century is over. Those are not a reality anymore and Maybe someday, everyone in these lands will learn to rejoice their former common culture.



              Also, you are right about EU and NATO as well. Turkey applied to the EU at 1960s but they were always playing hypocrite vs us. Never allowing Turkey to get any benefit from EU but they also never let us go away on our own way. They just keep Turkey at the door for 50 years but never allow us to enter from it. In 2010, most people here dislike and doesn't approve EU anymore, especially seeing what happened to the Greece in economic crisis.

              EU failed to be a real union. Their behavior for Greece`s problems is an indication of this.

              I believe new world order is coming upon us with the rise of China, India and Caucasus for an energy source to the world. EU has no place in this and its destined to be fail in the end.
              Last edited by Onur; 04-04-2010, 04:36 PM.

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                #22
                Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
                also

                iz-GAR-a (iz-gor-ra)

                when something is burned, iz-GOR-eno, pretezno e CRNO

                Gor-(e)-no e GAR-no

                is-kar-a / iz-ga-ra = SKARA , GRILL, G´r-ill , Gar-il, Gor-il(o)

                not sure if it was Belchev who already wrote / spoke about that...

                even in the "western" languages

                ne-gro (gro = gor)
                ne-gar
                ni-ger
                "nigga(r)"

                so many Kara Gari


                Now you are into my domain mate because I am a French teacher. Languages and History are my primal interests.


                We also use "Izgara" as well. For example, when you prepare a barbecue to do kebab, then we call it "Izgara Kebab" cuz kebabs are going to be burned on fire


                "Ci" is a suffix which agglutinated to the words in Turkish which usually signify a person/animal with certain profession, affection etc.

                Like "Kebab" is a meal. If i say "Kebab-ci", then it signifies "a person who makes/likes kebabs"

                You know, Turkish is an agglutinative language like other "Uralic, Altaic" languages like Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian etc.

                I can give you an extreme example of agglutination in Turkish like the word "Avustralyalilastiramadiklarimizdan". Written seperately with suffixes "Avustralya-li-las-ti-ra-ma-dik-lar-i-miz-dan"...

                This single word in Turkish written in English like;

                "one of those whom we could not make resemble the Australian people."







                About the word "Bul-gar";

                "Bul" means "to mix, mixing" in Turkish, like the word "Bul-amac" used when you "mix a different ingredients of a meal". OR the word "Bul-andirmak" used when you "mix something in liquid form and cause turmoil in it". "Gar" signifies the darkness or blackness as you said.



                In ancient Turkish records and legends from medieval times, its written like;
                "After the death of the Turkic Khagan Attilla of the Huns, all the unified Turkic tribes(which formed an union to beat Roman Empire) of the Hun empire disbanded at 5th century AD. Most of them returned to their homeland of Khazar sea and Attil of Volga river(Todays Ukraine and surroundings) but some of them stayed at Balkans. So, this tribe who stayed at Balkans, later called as "Bul-gar-s" because they intermarried with some local people in there like Slavs and all others, they mixed with them and forget/abandoned their culture in the end."



                Also a note about another mixed Turkic group;
                After the savage Mongolian pressure, most Turkish people who lives at the north of blacksea migrated into todays Hungary(12th century). They were the "Kipchak" people(The word kipchak means "double knives" in Turkish, which is the representative symbol of their Khagan). Later times, they called as "Cumans"(Kuman in Turkish script) by the other Turkish societies which means "Blondies, fair skinned or haired", because Cumans was mostly blond haired, green-blue eyed people.

                Some of Turkish Cumans, also migrated into north side of Macedonia at 11th century and they named the city as "Kumanova". "Ova" means "plain, steppe" in Turkish, so "Kumanova-Kumanovo" means "The plains/steppe of the Cumans". Cumans always liked the vast green plains because it was easier/faster to ride and travel by horses on those fields.





                Btw, These are the Turkic tribes who were still had shamanistic beliefs, lived around todays Ukraine. Dont confuse these people with the Turks who accepted/converted to the islam at Anatolia around 12th century. Before 12th century, The Turks around Anatolia had shamanistic beliefs too. Those Cumans and Bulgars became Christians and probably never encountered with Muslims b4 the Ottoman times of 15th century.

                But there are Ottoman archival records which says; When Turks decided to put an end to Byzantine reign and capture Constantinople, They called for help of all other Turks around Ottoman Empire, especially Cumans, because they were so popular with their warfare skills and they regarded as the most powerful warriors of the world among Turkish societies. The reason was, they were training all kids to ride and fight on horses as early as 4-5 years old. When they grow up, they were able to shoot a rabbit with a bow while riding on a horse with max. speed.

                After the conquest of Constantinople, Ottoman Sultan awarded them with gold because of their contribution and told them they can stay wherever they want in Anatolia or Balkans and gave them territories, farms. Some stayed in Balkans and some gone back to Cumania of Hungary.
                Last edited by Onur; 04-06-2010, 09:00 AM.

                Comment

                • Serdarot
                  Member
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 605

                  #23
                  Originally posted by mail2onur View Post
                  and then wash your hands with "sapuni"????
                  when you use sa-puni, couse sapun se-peni, it makes foam (se peni, sa peni = it makes foam), you get your hands clean

                  Whats important now, The fear and ideas of the politicians of 20th century is over. Those are not a reality anymore and Maybe someday, everyone in these lands will learn to rejoice their former common culture.
                  i am also optimist and hope for some times when the people on the Balkans will live with good realtions between eachother, but have some doubts when i see "greek" and sometimes the bulgarian, serbian and albanian behaviour.

                  some of their representatives simply can not learn from the past.

                  I believe new world order is coming upon us with the rise of China, India and Caucasus for an energy source to the world. EU has no place in this and its destined to be fail in the end.
                  interesting comment, i hope we discuss such issues in some other threads.

                  greetings
                  Bratot:
                  Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #24
                    Serdarot and Onur .... thanks for the interesting dialogue!

                    Onur, are you aware of any Balkan societies in Turkey today who still celebrate their unique identity in Turkey? I have read their dialect of Turkish was quite different from modern Turkish.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Onur
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 2389

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
                      i am also optimist and hope for some times when the people on the Balkans will live with good realtions between eachother, but have some doubts when i see "greek" and sometimes the bulgarian, serbian and albanian behaviour.

                      some of their representatives simply can not learn from the past.

                      In Turkey, we say "You can get a good lesson in every bad situation". So, Greece is in economical crisis but i hope they will realize that EU and their governments creating a illusion of "Turkish paranoia" to milk the "cows" more and get a lesson from this and stop doing racist chants vs all their "komshu"s.

                      Hell, they either select "Papandreu" or "Karamanlis" family for 100 years Ironically, "Karamanlis" family belong to the Turkish Christians society who lived in a region called "Karaman" at central Anatolia for 800+ years and then Greeks assimilated most of them at early 20th century and forced them to learn modern Greek language. They never spoke Greek b4 that


                      P. S : The word "Kara" again. We love to describe people with appearances


                      Originally posted by Serdarot View Post
                      interesting comment, i hope we discuss such issues in some other threads.

                      I think its inevitable. Oil in the middle-east gonna finish in 40 years and EU becoming older, slower and incapable while China, India continues to grow even with this crisis at western world. We will need new energy sources and Caucasus countries like Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan etc. has it all.

                      Imperialists created WW-1 when the oil discovered at middle-east(which belong to Ottomans till then). It created a nightmare for the regular people and even caused WW-2 too because Hitler wanted a revenge of WW-1 and tried to make Germany take the profits instead of England/French etc.

                      Russia, China, Turkey etc., will never let them do the same and occupy/capture those places as well.
                      Last edited by Onur; 04-05-2010, 10:34 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Onur
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2010
                        • 2389

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                        Onur, are you aware of any Balkan societies in Turkey today who still celebrate their unique identity in Turkey? I have read their dialect of Turkish was quite different from modern Turkish.

                        Yes of course we have some associations for the people who migrated from Balkans. In the city i live(Izmir, Smyrna) there are about(Estimated population) 500.000 Bosnians, 400.000 Bulgarians, 5.000 Rums(semi-Greeks), 200.000 Macedonians, 60.000 Albanians, 1.500 Sephardi Jews of "Ottoman Thessaloniki"(Greeks expelled Jews too) out of 4 million total population of the city. We got few ancient Orthodox churches dated as early as 14th century and some synagogues build after 16th century.

                        All the immigrants came here between 1840 to 1989(1989 for Bulgaria immigrants). We all got a bit different Turkish dialect but its not that different anymore because of standard Turkish language education in schools. But when i go to the another city at central Anatolia, sooner or later people asks me like "Are you from Smyrna?" when i speak with them. So, people still detect Turkish dialect of Balkan immigrants.

                        But if i speak with older people(60 to 90 year old) here, its quite unique dialect and immediately noticeable by everyone.
                        Last edited by Onur; 04-11-2010, 07:46 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Prolet
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 5241

                          #27
                          Onur, We have many many Turkish words in our language, we still use them today.

                          Ashkolsun Onur
                          МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                          Comment

                          • Prolet
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 5241

                            #28
                            If funny you mentioned the language, i got a good mate who is Turkish in Skopje (Ottoman Turkish) and he tells me there is a clear difference between the modern Turkish Language and the Ottoman Turk language.
                            МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                            Comment

                            • Mikail
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1338

                              #29
                              Originally posted by mail2onur View Post
                              Ironically, "Karamanlis" family belong to the Turkish Christians society who lived in a region called "Karaman" at central Anatolia for 800+ years and then Greeks assimilated most of them at early 20th century and forced them to learn modern Greek language. They never spoke Greek b4 that
                              Thanks guys for this insightful dialogue.

                              Onur, thanks for mentioning this about the Karamanlis family. My grandfather told me Costas great grandfather was known as Karaman-Ali, hence how they got the name Karamanlis. Nice of you to varify this without being asked about it as Greeks have been denying this fact every time I mentioned it.
                              From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

                              Comment

                              • Mikail
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1338

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                                Onur, We have many many Turkish words in our language, we still use them today.

                                Ashkolsun Onur
                                If you read his posts Prolet you will find he said there are influences all round. Stop making one sided statements.
                                From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

                                Comment

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