Albanian migration/expansion into Macedonia

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  • Big Bad Sven
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 1528

    Albanian migration/expansion into Macedonia

    Hey everyone, sorry if a familiar topic has already been posted.

    After reading the very sad, but very real topic about the albanicisation of Macedonia, and also reading bull shit claims and “justification” from shiptars on why Macedonia belongs to them: mainly because they have “always” been in Macedonia, that I decided to make a thread were members can post evidence of shiptar migration into Macedonia and also the lack of shiptar numbers in Macedonia’s past.

    I have put this into the “history” section of the forum, but if members think it should be in another category then the moderators can move this.

    Feel free to add any information please.
  • Big Bad Sven
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 1528

    #2
    The specific features of Trifunoski’s material should not be permitted to obscure, however, our appreciation of the general significance of this type of process, which certainly has not been confined in its relevance either to the movement of Albanians or to Macedonia. Three things are interesting about his findings.

    First of all, they are supported independently by the incidental observations of travelers in the region from an earlier period. In spite of Albanian nationalist claims to the effect that “Albania” traditionally extends to the east of a line drawn between Bitola and Skopje, Albanian settlement east of the Ohrid and Prespa lakes and the river Crni Drim seems to have been relatively thin in the early years of the nineteenth century.

    Secondly, an oral tradition regarding the origins of families, not infrequently extending back well over a century, is relatively common, making it possible to speak with precision and assurance about the origins of Albanian settlers in western Macedonia today.

    Thirdly, whereas contemporary Macedonian slav stereotypes accounting for the growth of the Albanian population invariably focus upon the higher fertility of Albanians, a high proportion of the expansion of population does appear to be due to in-migration and of a type described by Cvijic. In many cases, these have involved quite long-range movements, with a large number of the Albanian settlers from western Macedonia interviewed by Trifunoski tracing their origins to the Albanian regions of Llumi, Peshkopi and Mat. Although the zadruga is usually discussed as a specifically Slav institution, Trifunoski notes that it is the strength of this tradition of familial solidarity among Albanians which supports this type of incremental movement.

    Explaining Yugoslavia
    John B. Allcock
    Page 160

    Comment

    • Big Bad Sven
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 1528

      #3
      Albanians started to make serious inroads into northwest Macedonia and Kosovo, however, only in the 17th century when Ottoman persecution of the native Slav population emptied these areas of their inhabitants. After the fall of the empire of Gjergj Slkenderbey, the Albanians were largely loyal to the ottoman beys. Most converted to Islam and were rewarded with new lands bordering Albania. Many also learnt the Ottoman elite language and were schooled in Anatolia, later becoming beys in their own right.

      Macedonia: Bradt travel guide second edition.
      Thammy Evans
      Page 39

      Comment

      • Big Bad Sven
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 1528

        #4
        An article from Maknwes by Carl Savich, below is some if the article, but the remainder of the article talks about the period of nazi occupation and the expulsion of macedonians by shiptars:

        In the 18th century, the population of Tetovo began to increase. Residents from the following surrounding villages and suburbs began to settle in Tetovo: Brodec, Lisec, Selce, Poroj, Shipkovica, Gajre, Zhelino, Dobri Dol, Zherovjane, Novake, Gorno Palchiste, Senokos, Kamenane, and Gradec. Orthodox Macedonians, Bektashi and Sunni Muslim Albanians, Sunni Muslim Turks, Orthodox Serbs, and Roma were the major population groups of the city. By the end of the 19th century, the population of Tetovo was 19,000. The Slavic Orthodox villages and towns in the Tetovo municipality or district included Vratnica, Staro Selo, Tearce, Leshok, Belovishte, Jegunovce, Rogachevo, and Neproshteno.

        Tetovo or Htetovo was originally an Orthodox Christian settlement. With the Ottoman Turkish conquest, the city was settled by Turks from Anatolia, Asia Minor, and Bulgaria. For much of its history, Tetovo was divided between the Orthodox Slavic section and the Muslim Turkish section. The majority of the Albanian settlement of Tetovo and the surrounding villages resulted due to an influx of Albanian migration and settlement from Albania. Albanian settlement is relatively recent and is due to Albanian migrations from Albania proper into the Polog valley. The Albanian migrations originated in the Albanian districts of Findi Berdita and Luma in Albania. Albanian migration and settlement in Tetovo and the surrounding villages from Albania began only in the 18th and 19th centuries. The massive, intensive migrations of Albanian settlers from Albania proper began slowly to alter the ethnic composition of the majority Slavic Orthodox city. Settlers also came from Kosovo-Metohija. In the late 19th century and early 20th century, the Orthodox Christians migrated out of Tetovo for economic and political reasons. The total Slavic migration out of the city amounted to 5,500 during this period. During World War I, 2,000 left. After World War I, 5,000 Turks migrated to Turkey. Following World War II, another large group of Turks migrated out of the city. These migrations of Turks again changed the ethnic make-up of the city leaving Macedonian Orthodox and Albanian Muslim populations as the bulk of the population of the city.


        Comment

        • Big Bad Sven
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 1528

          #5
          Notice how the article states that the albanians are immigrants into macedonia:


          The main conflict between the Macedonian government and the Albanian immigrants is that their immigration into Macedonia is upsetting the delicate balance between ethnic groups. Albanians have been boycotting the Macedonian census for political reasons, but the last reliable figures show approximately 20% of the Macedonian population is ethnic Albanian (Pettifer 1994: 25).





          From the same article i found these two paragraphs interesting:

          One of the first large recorded migrations occurred from 1689-1690. This is called the "Great Migration" of the Serbian peoples and subsequently is a "Great Migration" of Albanians. Estimates place the number of Serbs leaving at 400,000-500,000. The reason for this migration was the Ottoman-Hapsburg War of 1683-1699. As the war was being fought, the Austrian emperor, Leopold I, offered the Serbs exile in Hapsburg territories. In 1790 alone, 37,000 Serbian families left for Hungary. However, more died of illness and starvation than were living in exile. Many Serbs expected to come back to their homes in Kosovo, but this hope was not fully realized. At this time, the Serbs were living in the valleys and the Albanians were living in the harsher, more mountainous areas. As the Serbs migrated and left behind vacant land, the Albanians came down from the hills to farm the more fertile lowlands the Serbs had once worked. As the Serbs left and the Albanians began to fill their place (both from the mountains and from Albania), the demographic of Serb versus Albanian percentage of the population gradually began to shift toward the Albanian majority we have today. Also, the Ottomans encouraged the Kosovars to take over the lands of the Serbs as a war tactic. The subsequent dispute over who should rightfully have the land put into motion the resentments that began to drive apart the Serbs and Albanians who had lived together more or less peacefully for the earlier 900 years. This first great movement set up the ethnic conflict of present day.

          As long as the politics of the nation has allowed it, Albanians have been dispersing from their original home of Albania. Historically, the movements have been in the area of the Balkans. In the eighteenth century, Albanian movement into Macedonia increased. To escape Ottoman rule, Albanians moved to start new communities in Italy, Greece, and along the Dalmatian Coast. Migrations into Kosovo were also common, partly because the Serbs moving out left land to farm, and partly because a plague swept through the area and killed many people who hadn’t left for migration. The Albanians found completely abandoned villages and fertile farmland with a sparse population density. At this particular time in the Diaspora, the Albanians let their contacts back home lapse and assimilated into the Slavic culture that had been dominant. These areas of settlement for the Albanians were familial units dispersed into small groups over a wide area. They lost the cultural security of tight-knit clans, but adopted the Southern Slav system of large family cooperatives in its place. This is one example of how Albanians assimilated into the culture of the area where they moved.




          Again the article mentions that albanian migration into macedonia increased in the 17th century, and also importantly mentions that when the serbs of kosovo were offered to leave to austrian lands, the albanians came from albania to settle in kosovo. This is important because leopold not only asked the serbs in kosovo, but also the "serbs" (more like macedonians!) in Skopje, Kumanovo and Tetovo to migrate to Austrian places as well. Hence those macedonian cities faced the same influx of albanian settlers from albanian mountains.

          Comment

          • George S.
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 10116

            #6
            bbs the migration that occured after the second world war is more or less albanians were kicked out by the envir roger into macedonia.Wherever macedonian farmers sold out their farms to albanians ,they have been establishing themselves.If they had similar birth to the macedonian population then there would be not much of a problem but one mother might have 10 to 20 children.A typical male looks forward to a life full of screwing & making babies all day.The other thing the macedonian govt is not really taking things seriosly & doing anything about it.The other thing is the govt does not have any idea what the are doing apparently when boris trajkovski was in power they let in 120000 albanians from kosovo & gave them instant citizenship so they can vote for trajkovski.This & other things is just crazy & is upsetting the balance of the population.
            Last edited by George S.; 12-30-2010, 12:12 PM.
            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
            GOTSE DELCEV

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              #7
              Good idea BBS.
              Moved it from "History" to "Exposing Lies and Propaganda".
              I think it is more appropriate here.
              Can we collate more about the 150,000 citizens offered citizenship in recent times?
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3810

                #8
                The Austrian army did not interfere anymore in the fights against the Ottoman - Tartar forces. After the suppression of the Karposh Uprising, the Grand Vizier declared the war 'Holy' and that the raya and the Muslims became equal. The Tartars of Crimea were stationed in the Skopje Field, and from there they entered Tetovo, Veles and Mariovo, suppressing the rebellions, and robbing the population. In the meantime, the Arnaut (Albanian) Koja Halil Pasha arrived ftom Peloponnese in Skopje. He had also destroyed everything in his path, and met Tartar Khan in Skopje. Although the forces of Arnaut Koja Halil Pasha did not participate in the suppression of the Karposh Uprising, because they arrived later, his Albanian mercenaries began to take over. Later they acquired land in Skopje and Tetovo region as a gratitude from the Sultan, for the evil that they had spread in these areas.
                Vanche Stojchev. “Military History of Macedonia" page 155.

                The consequences of the Karposh Uprising were of historical and permanent significance for the Macedonian people. The Empires, the Austrian and the Ottoman, declared the war Holy. In the name of God and Allah they fought to improve the conditions of the Christians and the Muslims. The Macedonian people suffered the most from the penetration of the Austrian army, and later from the revenge of the Ottoman and the Tartar forces. Their torture forced the Macedonian people to leave their homes and their land. The pashas gave their properties to those who caused the greatest suffering to the Macedonian people.



                The hard life under the Ottoman rule became even harder after the suppression of the Karposh Uprising and the retreat of the Austrian army. Although the Grand Vizier Kuprulu carried out reforms to improve the status of the Christians, the local authorities took severe revenge on the unarmed people. As a result of that situation, in the areas of Skopje, Tetovo and Tikves, many refugees left to the north. Under the leadership of the Patriarch of Pech, Arsenije III Carnojevich, in 1690, the Great Migration of the Christians was organized. People from Pech, Prishtina, Vranje, Prizren, from Skopje area, Kumanovo area, Kratovo area, Kriva Palanka, Polog, Veles, Shtip, Kochani, Bitola and even Salonica, were all moving north to Hungary, that is Vojvodina. There are data about the number of people who migrated. In some sources the figure of 30 or 40,000 people is noted. However, recent sources prove that the number was between 70-80,000 and 100,000 people. After the migration of the Macedonian population, the Ottoman authorities brought Turks- Yuruks, Albanians and other population on their properties. These people accepted Islam. After arriving in Austria, that is Vojvodina, Macedonians moved to Russia, where a Macedonian regiment was created.
                Vanche Stojchev. “Military History of Macedonia" page 157
                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3810

                  #9
                  Alot of info regrading the Albanian migrations into Macedonia can also be found here - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=1622&page=11

                  In many cases communal disputes seem to be related to the different geographical origin of the local clans. Though no proper research has been done, it is a fact that between 1750 and 1850 successive waves of refugees settled in Macedonia. They were Christians, Albanian-, Greek- or Vlach-speaking, evicted from Epirus due to the continuous disturbances caused initially by the Albanian tribes and later on by the Ali pasha irregulars. In the course of a century a considerable number of new villages were established throughout Macedonia, while in other cases refugee families settled in Slav-speaking communities.
                  Social cleavages and national "awakening" in Ottoman Macedonia, by Basil Gounaris, East European Quarterly, Winter 1995 v29 n4 p409(18).


                  Macedonia, just like the rest of the Balkans, according to the evidence available to us, has been an area where migrations, settlements, and forcible evictions have been common-place. For the Albanians to claim otherwise would be to distort history. The common myth that the Albanians share with their cousins in Athens, one of a perpetual cultural and even racial presence, demonstrates the fictitious homogeneity invented for them by Others and how this brand of ethno-nationalism is very mainstream in their society. Once we look past the fable of Pelasgians and Illyrians we see nothing more than a very customary trait in the Balkans that is millenias old.
                  Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    #10
                    good one tm.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #11
                      For information on the Albanianisation of Macedonia, you should read the chapter, 'Colonisation and Islamicisation' in the book, 'The Contest for Macedonian Identity' by N. Anastasovski.

                      Here are some parts from the book:

                      In Tetovo in 1452 there were 146 Christian families to 60 Muslim families. By the middle of the sixteenth century (in 1545) the number of Christian families had shrunk to 99 whilst the Muslim element increased to 101 (38 were Islamisized Macedonian Christians). Twenty three years later there were 108 Christian families and 329 Muslim families (184 were Islamisized Macedonian Christians). p. 43-44
                      The movement of the Albanian population was welcomed and encouraged by the Ottomans, as an instrument to subjugate the Christian subjects, p.50
                      A Balkan correspondent reported for The New York Times in 1901 that Macedonia was in a condition of chronic anarchy "owing to the lawlessness of the Albanians ... Albanians were 'deliberately planted by the Turks for obvious strategic reasons' p.50-51
                      [quote] Added pressure to accept Islam came from Muslim Albanians who had spread into Western Macedonia during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Armed Albanian bandits (known as Katchatci) operated in the western regions of Macedonia. Groups of up to 150 men, from May to September each year in the late nineeenth century, brought misery to unarmed Christian villages. The most affected regions were Debar, Tetovo, Gostivar, Kitchevo and Ohrid. Albanian bandits engaged in a notorious annual practice of kidnapping people, usually children, and holding the whole village to ransom for their safe return...p.64 [quote]

                      Some Albanian villages openly stole from their Christian neighbours p.65
                      Entire Macedonian Christian villages were plundered and held for ransom and it was not uncommon for Macedonian Christian villages to hand over money p.66
                      In the summer of 1894 the Albanian bandit, Sefer demanded payment from the villages of the Porech region. Anticipating another bandit attack, the villagers together with their children slept in the woods overnight for two weeks. Sefer arrived one evening with his band and found the village deserted. Enraged, he set fire to 22 homes and many outer buildings. Eleven families left Zvechan after this event.
                      In the Porech region a group of six Macedonian Christian villages under the oppression of the Albanian bandit, Ibish, could not conduct a wedding ceremony without his approval, and had to make a payment to him before the wedding could go ahead. p.67
                      Unlike the Ottoman Turks, Albanians were known for their assimiliatory propensity. The movement of Albanians into Macedonian Muslim villages saw a gradual Albanianisation occur. The villages of Ostreni, Trnovo, Klene, Leten, Dzheptisa, Brbele, Obuki, Makelari and others were largely Albanianised by the end of the nineteenth century. Where Albanians moved into Christian villages, it was common for Macedonians to leave. In the middle of the nineteenth century the Debar villages of Vichica, Goleica and Pisanki were exclusively Macedonian Christian; by the end of the century they had become exclusively Albanian. In Grazhdani Albanians arrived in the 1850's. By 1900 there remained only eight Christian homes. Migrating Albanians overran entire districts in the frontier Debar region (Grika, Luzunija, Dolno Debar) with the only remnants of the original Macedonian inhabitants being the obviously typical Macedonian toponyms. p.75-76

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #12
                        they seem to be expanding & taking over for a greater albania.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Big Bad Sven
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 1528

                          #13
                          LOL i got a nasty private message from one of our new users "Demaj"

                          Here is his message, he must be from albania or kosovo because he cant spell and structure proper sentences and paragraphs:




                          I read you are trying to prove albanians migrating into macedonia,,..
                          Albanians started to make serious inroads into northwest Macedonia and Kosovo, however, only in the 17th century when Ottoman persecution of the native Slav population emptied these areas of their inhabitants. After the fall of the empire of Gjergj Slkenderbey, the Albanians were largely loyal to the ottoman beys. Most converted to Islam and were rewarded with new lands bordering Albania. Many also learnt the Ottoman elite language and were schooled in Anatolia, later becoming beys in their own right.ARE YOU JOKING ME,,just for starters take a good hard look at a map in 1681 of albanians lands,I ashume that yor serbian or bulgarian blood is kicking into the propaganda you are speaking,,For you as a slavnic or bulgarian people have no idea about macedonians,Macedonia was greek as kosova is albanian,both languages of greeks and albanians have meaning of all over balkans and since the slavnic language is not from balkans just goes to show how silly you macedonian slavnics are,I wouldnt even call myself macedonian because thoses people have been gone for a long long time,macedonia stretched much in albanian land and into greek land there was no border between greece epirus,macedonia,and albania,since macedonians were of illyrian and thracian,and albanians are in the same leauge as you then use your logic slavnic brain,,,both gheg albanians share ancient instruments with old macedonians,and also sine there is 600,000 gheg albanians in macedonia can you show me the migration of them,Because i know there is no way in world macedonians would let that many albanians in there unless they were already there?

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #14
                            Yeah, he never made it into the "A Team".

                            He "ashumes" far too much I would say.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 3242

                              #15
                              BBS
                              You must be doing something right to get such a demented response, ne mo beri gajle, continue with the truth if he can't handle it, teshko nanegou!
                              On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                              Comment

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