Alleged Human Rights "issues" of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia

[DraganOfStip]

For example just recently with the war torn country like violence happening in Chicago, you see a lot of attention given to the communities that live their and because of the Black Lives Matter (BLM) movement you see a lot of attention given to the black community as a whole. When I hear these black community leaders or protesters come out and give speeches, I could swear I am hear Albanians voice their "grievances". The general line coming out of these BLM protests is that black people are still treated unequally in the USA, especially as it relates to policing. They claim black people are arrested more frequently, killed more frequently, and treated in general with discrimination and contempt by the authorities.

That's exactly what a close friend of mine that moved to Chicago almost 10 years ago said when he was visiting this summer.
One of our friends for some reason mentioned the "wave" of police brutality against blacks that was in the center of the media back then.
And he just said "I was on the same page with you before I moved but now seeing what's happening with my own eyes, I can see blacks are just victimizing themselves playing the racism card.Things are not what American media present them to be at all.In Chicago it's not safe to walk through the black suburbs, people get robbed,raped and assaulted by street gangs all the time, and when the cops come to make an arrest it's white oppression on the black people. "
The media give special attention and coverage to incidents involving black people which, given the vast territory and number of criminal offenses per day in a country with 300+ million people, aren't really as frequent as presented.
It's like all western media show an article about how an Israeli soldier gives water and food to a starving Palestinian child ,but no one reports of several attacks of the Israeli army on Palestinian camps killing god-knows-how-many Palestinian civilians that very same day.
Same thing.

[Stojacanec]

Calls and support for a Greater Albainia will
Only gain ground if Macedonia isn't inclusive,accepting and understanding of Albanian needs. If they keep delaying reforms and EU/NATO integration (without sorting the name issue) or continue anti-western rhetoric while flirting with Russia.. then Albanians will come out and say we want to move forward with the rest of the region and not be excluded and held back due to Macedonian issues..

This would be regarded as a treasonous act. Not sure where your getting your ideas from but from what I can see "Albanisation of Macedonia thread" pictures and articles, these sort of things need to be stamped out.

Which country allows another country's flag to dominate the landscape?

Which politicians consult with another country's governemnt?

I have no problem where people call themselves Albanian and are taught the language WITHIN the Macedonian curriculaum.

However, thinking like you do will ensure that Macedonian and Albanian relations will remain in the dark ages.

[Karposh]

"The Leshok monastery case was always said to be an inside job..." Yep, and the two Albanians that perished at a Tetovo Security check point, live on TV, in a hail storm of Macedonian machine gun fire were, in fact, slain in vain. Despite the clear video footage of one hurling a grenade at a Macedonian policeman, Albanian media outlets insisted that the two men were innocent civilians murdered by Macedonian security forces, and that the grenade had in fact been a mobile phone.

There's a great book by Canadian war correspondent and former soldier, Scott Taylor, called "Diary of an unCivil War" that is a must read for anyone interested in the dirty politics behind the Kosovo conflict and the 2001 Albanian insurgency in Macedonia. In it, Taylor, documents some of the cunning Albanian trickery in their dirty bag of tricks that were designed to appeal to the Western media and gain sympathy as the poor innocent victims at the hands of the hateful and horrible Macedonians. Be warned though, if you have high blood pressure, because it will rise off the charts when you read through the first-hand accounts of US complicity (with Albanians) and duplicity (with Macedonians) during the course of the conflict. I have singled out some excerpts from the book that, if you're anything like me, are sure to give you a headache at the injustice of it all.

Quote 1 (Page 126):
At a cafe in the center of Neopristina (most likely referring to Neproshteno), we encountered an OSCE international monitoring team investigating the bombardment. Team leader Carl Underwood, an American Vietnam veteran, came over to introduce himself. According to Underwood, the Macedonians had been firing at Neopristina in retaliation for UCK attacks on a dam up a nearby creek that provides Ratae's (i.e. Rataje) water supply. When first asked about this, Albanian villagers had denied the allegation. They denied it again, even when standing by the dry creek bed. "It's annoying as hell when they just keep making up new lies," said Underwood as headed back into the café to rejoin the investigation.

Quote 2 (Page 127):
After I was introduced to Commanders Mouse and Jimmy, we all went back to the café so we could talk and be heard above the clamour of the kids. After exchanging pleasantries - as well as a round of one-upmanship in the sharing of Balkan war-zone experiences - we had a very straightforward discussion.
As I was an ex-military type, they talked openly about their forces. The previous night, Herr Peel had told me that American helicopters had been supplying arms to the nearby village of Sipkovica. Despite the use of covering smoke screen. Macedonian security forces spotted two Chinook transport helicopters.
When the Macedonian media published photos of this not-so-covert aid to the Albanians, the Americans replied that the delivery was "vital humanitarian aid." I asked Mouse and Jimmy about the American claim and they both laughed out loud. "What do you think?" asked Mouse. "This is summer in the Balkans, and every village has plenty of foof stocks."
Still laughing, he asked, "Did the Americans really say it was humanitarian aid?" Commander Jimmy was more direct. We don't have heavy artillery and the Macedonians do. Is it wrong for the Americans to even the playing field?" I smiled and agreed. Denny shouted, "God Bless America!"

Quote 3 (Page 133):
Things were really heating up.As we reached the banks of the Vardar, an American Twin Huey utlity helicopter roared over us at treetop level. A grinning door-gunner gave us a thumbs-up and the kids (Albanians) cheered wildly. Startled at the appearance of a NATO aircraft so blatantly violating Macedonian air space, I asked out loud, "What the hell are the Yanks doing here?". One of the older boys looked at me sternly and said, "They're here to help us - or don't you think they should?"

Quote 4 (Page137):
During my phone call (to Bruce Garvey at the Canadian newspaper, The Citizen), several Albanians had crowded around, trying to follow my story. When I finished, one of the older men asked, "Why didn't you tell them about how our women and children are suffering?" When I replied that I hadn't seen any women or children, I immediately realised that I had taken his bait. A few men escorted me to the basements of some of Bojane's larger houses. In each crowded cellar, there were approximately two dozen women and children
sitting on mats around the floor, rocking back and forth and pretending to cry - from fear of the Macedonian police, I was told. I say "pretending" because the whole scene was so badly acted, it was embarrassing to be a part of. I knew that I was expected to express my shock and sympathy, but seeing the young girls laughing behind their hands at each other's phoney tears made it impossible for me to feign compassion. When my guide asked if I would like to photograph this "suffering," I lied and said that I was out of film.
"They have been down in the shelter since the fighting in June," he told me. When I asked if all they did was sit and cry all day, every day, he replied with a straight face, "Yes."
As we were leaving, I glanced back and saw young children spilling out eagerly into the back garden, and teenage girls watching our passage from an upstairs window.

[Risto the Great]

I would be pretty upset if I was forced in a room and ordered to pretend to cry all day.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes this is a bit old but not much has changed and is relevant for many other municipalities where Albanians live, it's for all those who truly want to see an issue from both sides with a balanced view which offers facts and figures on how non equal Albanian regions have been treated by the State. Please take the time to read it and and try to see an Albanian perspective.

If you think all the regions and villages populated by Macedonians have it much better then you're even more delusional than your diatribes in the other thread seem to suggest. And why is the bar set so high for Macedonia as opposed to every other poor Balkan country with rampant nepotism and corruption? Your people practically run that quasi-state up north, is the utopia project working there? You can't even get your act together in Kosovo where you're a majority and you want to dictate terms to Macedonia where you're a minority? Give me a break. Here's an idea, try being constructive towards the country you live in rather than destabilising it whenever things don't go your way. Here's another one, try working towards obtaining an education or experience, or developing reputable and respectable characteristics, then go for the job that you want, rather than expecting it just because you supposedly belong to a 25% minority. I would rather a decent, hardworking and sensible individual as a police officer in Macedonia, for example, over a lazy, self-entitled or disrespectful moron, even if the former was from a minority group and the latter was a Macedonian. I am all for equality as citizens, meaning everybody is equal before the laws of the state. I also support minority rights, so long as they don't negatively impact on the integrity and sovereignty of the state. However, when it comes to core matters relating to the national and cultural identity of the state, then that is a matter for Macedonians and should be based on Macedonian history. That's the way it is in most countries and that's the way it should be in Macedonia.

The strength of that element within the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia which causes problems is not organic, instead it rests solely on the inability of Macedonians to unite. Whatever the population numbers may be, Macedonians are still an absolute majority in the Macedonian republic and if they were to put aside their petty differences they would not be so susceptible to these issues. Macedonians need to take heed of the statement made by one of Macedonia's most famous sons; the world is a field for the cultural competition among nations. At the moment, we're being competitive with each other rather than towards those who have an agenda against Macedonia. That is why we're losing. But despite the many setbacks, it is not all lost. Macedonians can still make a positive difference and change their fate if they retain any of the spirit that was so prominent in their forefathers. And minorities loyal to the state should be engaged in the process and support this endeavour.

[Albo]

Interesting debate on Alsat -M

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5bEllPiA7YE

[Risto the Great]

Most Albanians are bi-lingua or even Tri-lingual this doesn't effect our strong sense of knowing who we are,

You should try telling that to the ones in Greece. They have a strong sense of being Greek. So perhaps you don't need to be so adamant about that. Given the right economic conditions, I suspect ethnic Albanians will even become Serbs. Let's not forget what they changed into in Ottoman times.

Calls and support for a Greater Albainia will
Only gain ground if Macedonia isn't inclusive,accepting and understanding of Albanian needs. If they keep delaying reforms and EU/NATO integration (without sorting the name issue) or continue anti-western rhetoric while flirting with Russia.. then Albanians will come out and say we want to move forward with the rest of the region and not be excluded and held back due to Macedonian issues..

Macedonian issues are primarily of interest to Macedonians. who do happen to be the majority in Macedonia. Relatively recent Kosovar immigrants should be the first ones to leave if they don't like this issue. They chose to migrate to a nation of Macedonians. The remaining ethnic Albanians who have lived in Macedonia for much longer knew how to co-exist with Macedonians. They would have a better chance living with Macedonians.

Living standards of Albanians in Macedonia at the fall of communism at one stage were higher than those from Albania and Kosovo, Today this is far from the case, another reason which would increase nationalistic voices is if economically other Albanian regions are see to be doing far better off than than the Albanian regions of Macedonia, I'm not threatening, it's just how the situation is seen... but again as I have said earlier, this is all in the hands of the powers that be.

The same living standards applied to Macedonians. You have avoided the issue at every time. Macedonians are suffering just as much as ethnic Albanians and in some circumstances, more. Got it?

We don't want the upper hand, we want a Macedonia that takes decisions with our best interest in mind,
We need consensual decision making at all levels in matters that directly effect us... This is the idea of the FA, but has never been fully implimented.

We need Macedonian and Albanian leaders that do things together, promote programs, jointly inaugurate prijects make joint public appearance, give joint press conferences, ect
Unity needs to be shown from the top..

Here is the simple truth, Macedonia cannot make decisions with the best Albanian interests in mind. Albania can. Not Macedonia. Macedonia can (hopefully) make decisions that support its citizens and particularly (and logically) its majority AND not punish any minorities in the process. It is pretty much the best it can do. Find me a nation that can do more Albo.

Is it worth a war? What do you think Albo?

[Albo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Most Albanians are bi-lingua or even Tri-lingual this doesn't effect our strong sense of knowing who we are,

You should try telling that to the ones in Greece. They have a strong sense of being Greek. So perhaps you don't need to be so adamant about that. Given the right economic conditions, I suspect ethnic Albanians will even become Serbs. Let's not forget what they changed into in Ottoman times.

Greece is a totally different case.. I was referring to Albanians in Macedonia,
But as you mentioned Greece, there are still many regions and individuals who harbor a strong obscure Arvanites/Greek identity who see themselves as different from the majority "Greek" population

E.g, There a few years ago there were protests in Greece in an Arvanites region near Athens where the government wanted to open a new landfill site, when they were interviewing the protesters they were saying

"They have chosen this location simply because we are Arvanites"
Some I'm not saying they all.see themselves as Albanians in the full sense of what we know Albanians to be.. but they are proud to be "different" from the majority and are well awear that they were responsible for the creation of the Greek state in 1821. Still many express their Albanian/Arvanites culture openly. Eg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gNLCHuAsobY

OR.. check out this page to see the Arvanites/Albanian culture still alive today in Greece..

https://m.youtube.com/user/Kryezoti/videos?shelf_id=3&sort=dd&view=0

As for your comments as to what Albanains became under the ottomans??
Please explain??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Calls and support for a Greater Albainia will
Only gain ground if Macedonia isn't inclusive,accepting and understanding of Albanian needs. If they keep delaying reforms and EU/NATO integration (without sorting the name issue) or continue anti-western rhetoric while flirting with Russia.. then Albanians will come out and say we want to move forward with the rest of the region and not be excluded and held back due to Macedonian issues..

Macedonian issues are primarily of interest to Macedonians. who do happen to be the majority in Macedonia. Relatively recent Kosovar immigrants should be the first ones to leave if they don't like this issue. They chose to migrate to a nation of Macedonians. The remaining ethnic Albanians who have lived in Macedonia for much longer knew how to co-exist with Macedonians. They would have a better chance living with Macedonians

Yes I understand that Macedonians are the majority, (65% of the population) but that doesn't give them the right to act as if they are 95% of the population..

At every stage of the modern history of Macedonia Albanians have been involved .. eg, Krushevo Republic, (where most of the weapons were supplied by Albanians and many fought alongside the Half Albanian half Vlachs Pitu Guli, the cherry wood cannon was supplied by Albanians.. the Krushevo republics parliament was to be made up of 60 members 20 Macedonians 20 Albanians and 20 Vlachs.

If to move to ww2 and the Partisans.. Albanians were heavily involved.. the first partisan to fall in Macedonia was Bajram Shabani ...who died in belanoc in Kumanovo.. today there are schools and roads named after him.. there were joint Albanian/Macedonian brigades who fought side by side against a common enemy and died..
Those who died, died for their homeland... to be treated equally not as second class citizens who need no beg the majority for equality..

Also 1991 Albanians were pro the separation from Yugoslavia and voted to leave the federation (but didn't agree on then constitution) they didn't boycott the parliament and institutions of the new state that didn't seek a consensus on the concept of the state...

Had Macedonian declared independent today.. the concept and constitution of the state would look very different and would more resemble that of Bosnia and Kosovo due to international pressure..
Where issues like Albanian being an official language wouldn't be questioned.. but that's all another issue..

The main clash that occurs between Albanians and Macedonians in Macedonia I believe isn't due to the fear of possible land annexation by Albanians.. (although this is used heavily in the media as a scare tactic)

The problem is THE CONCEPT OF THE STATE.. and how both sides see Macedonia and it's future..

Macedonians understandably see it as a nation state and the land of the Macedonians.. and as the majority they exclusively decide the direction, ideals, concept, budget, policy ect of the country..which puts Macedonian interests, culture and politics at the for front of everything and others (mainly the Albanians) should just agree and comply regardless of what they think or how they are effected by the decisions of the majority.

Whereas Albanians see or would rather see a Macedonia where they are just as important as the Macedonians and are just as much " The owners" of the the land they live in as the Macedonians.. and need to be consulted and made part of the process of key policy issues and the strategic goals of Macedonia..

They want to live as Albanians culturally, and not feel left out of developments that have to do with.the rest of their ethnic kind in neighboring countries while still being a part of a unitary Macedonia without internal division but with a european decentralised local government structure with appropriate proportional funding from central authorities..where everyday issues can be delt with and sorted without neglect from the majority.

Albanians see themselves and the Macedonians as the 2 pillars of the state.. where both are needed to keep the state upright and stable. .. Macedonians see Albanians as unimportant and on par with other minorities like Turks,Serbs,Roma Vlachs ect..

Until both sides can come up with a concept that doesn't impact the other side negatively but allows both ethnic groups to prosper and move forward economically ,socially, culturally, politically ect.. there will always be a constant clash that brings nothing but hatred, division and stagnation...

On your comment on the Kosovars.. I'm not saying there are no Albanians in Macedonia who originate from Kosovo... but the numbers are not over estimated by Macedonians.. also there are many many more Albanians who originate from Macedonia who live in large urban cities of Kosovo like Prishtina, Prizren Mitrovica who relocated to Kosovo during the days of Yugoslavia as Prishtina was the the political and cultural center of the Albanians of Yugoslavia..

Let's not mention the hundreds of thousands of Albanians who live in Turkey but originate from Macedonia who have never come back.

Which part of Macedonia has Albanians living in it that haven't been there for over 100 years but do today due to "Kosovo migration"?

The same living standards applied to Macedonians. You have avoided the issue at every time. Macedonians are suffering just as much as ethnic Albanians and in some circumstances, more. Got it?

I'm not avoiding it.. what I'm saying is give us an equal proportionate share of the budget and investments (both foreign and government) give us the chance to do what we can equally and if we fail it will be our fault... we will have nobody to blame.. on paper and through laws we need garuantees and protections that will allow us to be on an equal setting..

Just look at the neighborhoods of Skopje and you see the clear institutional discrimination that has occurred over years between Albanian and Macedonian neighborhoods .. It's incomparable

Here is the simple truth, Macedonia cannot make decisions with the best Albanian interests in mind. Albania can. Not Macedonia. Macedonia can (hopefully) make decisions that support its citizens and particularly (and logically) its majority AND not punish any minorities in the process. It is pretty much the best it can do. Find me a nation that can do more Albo.

Is it worth a war? What do you think Albo?

I have addressed most of this above...
Nothing is worth a War.. nobody wins!!

[vicsinad]

As for your comments as to what Albanains became under the ottomans??
Please explain??

That whole conversion from Christianity to Islam in order to gain superior privileges and rights must have slipped your mind.

[Amphipolis]

You should try telling that to the ones in Greece. They have a strong sense of being Greek. So perhaps you don't need to be so adamant about that.

This is a relevant and interesting story from this week. These seven young men seem to be 2nd generation (or what they call 1 ½ generation) from the recent wave of Albanian illegal immigrants that gained citizenship (through a law that was later found unconstitutional). Thus, the socio-political and legal implications are obvious.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2017/01/23/greek-defmin-asks-for-severe-punishment-of-army-recruits-making-the-sign-of-albanian-flag/

[Risto the Great]

Greece is a totally different case.. I was referring to Albanians in Macedonia

Why is it a totally different case? You really should think about that. You gave the impression that ethnic Albanians are able to withstand all local influences and retain their ethnic identity.

I gave you the example of the Arvanites (who will swear they are 100% Greek) and I also reminded you of what Albanians did under Ottoman times (you didn't seem to understand I was talking about renouncing Christianity and becoming Muslim in order to gain benefits).

I would say they are more progressive than Macedonians in some regards. I certainly wouldn't say they are better at retaining their ethnic identity than Macedonians.

Yes I understand that Macedonians are the majority

Thank you.

Macedonians understandably see it as a nation state and the land of the Macedonians.. and as the majority they exclusively decide the direction, ideals, concept, budget, policy ect of the country..which puts Macedonian interests, culture and politics at the for front of everything and others (mainly the Albanians) should just agree and comply regardless of what they think or how they are effected by the decisions of the majority.

Whereas Albanians see or would rather see a Macedonia where they are just as important as the Macedonians and are just as much " The owners" of the the land they live in as the Macedonians.. and need to be consulted and made part of the process of key policy issues and the strategic goals of Macedonia..

Ethnic Albanians of Macedonia do not even want to allow their Macedonian majority to be called Macedonians. They offer no support for this.

Try this on for size my dear ethnic Albanian friend. Stand next to me, say in a loud and proud voice "I, Albo, an ethnic Albanian of Macedonia stand next to my Macedonian brother and support him. As an ethnic Albanian, I will fight together with my Macedonian brother for our country and our name and the name of our majority. May OUR Macedonia be strong and live forever"

Nah, I doubt it too.

Let's not mention the hundreds of thousands of Albanians who live in Turkey but originate from Macedonia who have never come back.

And Kosovo, sure. Let's not forget the Macedonians who are not there any more either. Particularly in the "cleansed" regions of Western Macedonia.

Which part of Macedonia has Albanians living in it that haven't been there for over 100 years but do today due to "Kosovo migration"?

I would expect the tens (or hundreds) of thousands to migrate to ethnic Albanians areas closer to the Kosovo border.

I'm not avoiding it.. what I'm saying is give us an equal proportionate share of the budget and investments (both foreign and government) give us the chance to do what we can equally and if we fail it will be our fault... we will have nobody to blame.. on paper and through laws we need garuantees and protections that will allow us to be on an equal setting..

Kosovo is a good example of how well that isn't going.

Nothing is worth a War.. nobody wins!!

I don't know, you guys did alright with a little help from USA a few years back. But still, I urge you .... stand next to me brother and support my right to be a Macedonian! Let's work things out.

[Albo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Greece is a totally different case.. I was referring to Albanians in Macedonia

Why is it a totally different case? You really should think about that. You gave the impression that ethnic Albanians are able to withstand all local influences and retain their ethnic identity.

Well I'm not saying there are no cases of Albanians becoming assimilated around the world,
But the ability of Albanians to keep their identity and culture for centuries in different countries around the world is truly unique to any other Balkan people here are some examples of Albanian communities around the world who have been separated from their ancestral lands for many generations and still keep some form of an Albanian identify different from the majority surrounding them:

The Arberesh Albanians of Italy who have been living in their communities since the 1400s

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people

Albanians of Greece, Arvanites have been in Greece for centuries and still preserve a distinct archaic culture!




Albanians in Ukraine

http://www.kosovodiaspora.org/finding-albanians-in-ukraine/

Albanians in Bulgaria

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbanasi,_Bulgaria

Albanians of Argentina

http://archive.kosovotwopointzero.com/en/article/1422/albanians-in-argentina-the-language-of-memory

Albanians of Egypt

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Egypt

Albanians of Romania

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_of_Romania

Albanians of Croatia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_of_Croatia

------------------------------------------------------------

I gave you the example of the Arvanites (who will swear they are 100% Greek) and I also reminded you of what Albanians did under Ottoman times (you didn't seem to understand I was talking about renouncing Christianity and becoming Muslim in order to gain benefits).

Not all renounced Christianity- and most did your right for benefits but mostly for the right to bare arms and land ownership..
We did what we had to do to survive as best as possible..
Early conversation were only a formality, where there are numerous accounts of Albanians preying at mosques of Fridays and going to church on Sundays.. but as years passed this died out..
People have all coverted over the centuries be it from Paganism to Christianity to Atheism , what's the difference..?

Although there are examples of where Albanians seemed privileged under the ottomans, this isn't the case, Albanians were always put on the front lines of war as cannon fodder and when it came to language and political rights under the empire were categorically denied language and religious instruction in Albanian... something that wasn't the case with others in the region.. I'm not sure how much you know about this topic?

Ethnic Albanians of Macedonia do not even want to allow their Macedonian majority to be called Macedonians. They offer no support for this.

I'm sorry but I seriously don't agree with this comment..
Albanians don't have a problem Macedonians calling themselves Macedonian,
We have shown support for decades in the name dispute with Greece and have never imposed or threatened any form of protest or demand that the name be changed to xxxxx in order to form a coalition. (which many had advised us to do)

But the atmosphere is that we can't keep the status quo going forever while the rest of the region moves forward, with a name solution meaning NATO membership and Albanians being very proud NATO for obvious reasons and with recent Serbian/Russian actions in the region. I'm sure calls for an urgent solution will become louder from the Albanian bloc.

Try this on for size my dear ethnic Albanian friend. Stand next to me, say in a loud and proud voice "I, Albo, an ethnic Albanian of Macedonia stand next to my Macedonian brother and support him. As an ethnic Albanian, I will fight together with my Macedonian brother for our country and our name and the name of our majority. May OUR Macedonia be strong and live forever"

Nah, I doubt it too.

Yes fine.. I will add,
My full loyalty to Macedonia however isn't going to occur until Macedonia reflects the ture nature of its population and their wishes for equality before the law,
Where we can live and develop our regions and culture freely without discrimination and prejudice and where our importance in the stability and functioning of Macedonia isn't underestimated or seen as irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Which part of Macedonia has Albanians living in it that haven't been there for over 100 years but do today due to "Kosovo migration"?
I would expect the tens (or hundreds) of thousands to migrate to ethnic Albanians areas closer to the Kosovo border.

I'm not saying there are none but the figures are unknown 100%
But as I have said the amount of Albanians who originate from Macedonia and live in Kosovo is much higher.

Most of the migration occurred during Yugoslavia and were seen as migrations withing the country.

The same can be said about Skopje, with MASS state funded and orchestrated migration of Macedonians and Serbs were relocated from all regions of Macedonia and other regions of Yugoslavia into purpose built largly ethnic homogeneous new neighborhoods of Skopje where the demographics were changed to de-Albaniansize the city (this de-Albanianization of Skopje still continues today with projects such as Skopje 2014)

At the turn of the last century Skopje had the highest number of Albanians living in it than any other city in the Balkans including Albania.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Nothing is worth a War.. nobody wins!!
I don't know, you guys did alright with a little help from USA a few years back. But still, I urge you .... stand next to me brother and support my right to be a Macedonian! Let's work things out.

Yesss.. let's work things out.. the ball is in your court..
You are the majority and hold the keys to most of the problems..

[DraganOfStip]

Yes I understand that Macedonians are the majority, (65% of the population) but that doesn't give them the right to act as if they are 95% of the population..

What does that even mean? There are no countries in the world with 100% population consisted of 1 ethnicity, the simplest definition of majority is "something that is over 50%".
Anything between 51% and 100% is considered a majority and it holds a dominant role in whatever area it is present.
Or as Spok would say: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

... to be treated equally not as second class citizens who need to beg the majority for equality..

Equal treatment?
In Macedonia,in the private sector at least, if an Albanian walks to apply for a job and scores higher points than a Macedonian HE WILL GET THE JOB.
Whereas in state institutions, as i have pointed out from personal experience, the Albanian is just required to show up and file an application regardless of his scores.
Please, do talk some more of equality.

Second class citizens?
In Macedonia, Albanians have elementary schools,high schools and University where they are taught in Albanian.
They're free to speak Albanian, they even have a national TV channel (MTV2) that is entirely in Albanian just to suit them.
In areas where they consist 25% of the population, they have official municipal communication also in Albanian, they have their identification documents (identity Card,Drivers License,Passport) also in Albanian, they have road signs also in Albanian, they freely display Albanian flags (whereas rarely someone has the common courtesy of displaying the flag of the country they live in), they have schools, objects and streets named after Albanians...Hell,not to mention that all Macedonian products include Albanian on their labels, even in areas where Albanians are nowhere to be seen.
They have the Badinter majority rule in decision making, at least one Albanian party has always been in power since the independence (even though Macedonian parties aren't obligated to do so, it wouldn't be unconstitutional and yet no one has done it so far), and there is also the mandatory quota of 25% of public/state employees being Albanians, regardless of whether they're actually qualified or show up at work at all. Macedonians, the absolute majority of the country's population, don't have a mandatory quota when it comes to state jobs, but Albanians somehow do.
Please, do tell me more how all of the above are features of second class citizens.

The truth is Albo, whether you'd like to admit it or not, that Albanians in Macedonia have the most rights outside of Albania or Kosovo.
In fact, you're absolutely right.You do not have equal rights.You're PRIVILEGED here.

Macedonians understandably see it as a nation state and the land of the Macedonians.. and as the majority they exclusively decide the direction, ideals, concept, budget, policy ect of the country..which puts Macedonian interests, culture and politics at the for front of everything and others (mainly the Albanians) should just agree and comply regardless of what they think or how they are effected by the decisions of the majority.

Whereas Albanians see or would rather see a Macedonia where they are just as important as the Macedonians and are just as much " The owners" of the the land they live in as the Macedonians.. and need to be consulted and made part of the process of key policy issues and the strategic goals of Macedonia..

...what I'm saying is give us an equal proportionate share of the budget and investments (both foreign and government) give us the chance to do what we can equally and if we fail it will be our fault... we will have nobody to blame.. on paper and through laws we need garuantees and protections that will allow us to be on an equal setting..

May I remind you once again, an Albanian party has been in power ever since our indepencence. You've had ministry seats, directors seats, managerial seats, mayors seats...So Albanians HAVE been a part of decision making in this country for 25 years now. Whenever a government decision is made, it needed the "green light" from the Albanian party in the government coalition. Practically, ALL government decisions to date are made with the consent and approval of an Albanian party.
In Albanian-dominated municipalities, there have always been Albanian mayors and Albanian majority in the municipal council.Macedonian minority seats aren't asked about anything either. Because they're a minority and have no say in municipality decisions, their votes make no difference.
And yet, just like the Macedonians, they do nothing to improve the citizen's quality of life, but think only of their pockets instead.
Stop victimizing your people and smell the coffee for God's sake.

Albanians see themselves and the Macedonians as the 2 pillars of the state.. where both are needed to keep the state upright and stable. .. Macedonians see Albanians as unimportant and on par with other minorities like Turks,Serbs,Roma Vlachs ect..

Until both sides can come up with a concept that doesn't impact the other side negatively but allows both ethnic groups to prosper and move forward economically ,socially, culturally, politically ect.. there will always be a constant clash that brings nothing but hatred, division and stagnation...

How will an agreement for a foreign investment be more valid if it is signed in Albanian rather than in Macedonian?
How will the notice for liquidation of a company written in Albanian give jobs to those people more than if it was written in Macedonian?
How will an eviction notice evict people from their home more if it's written in Albanian rather than in Macedonian?

All people who live in this country face the same problems: corruption and poverty.
It doesn't affect me more than it affects you.Or a Roma,or a Vlach, or a Turk, or a Serb.
We all share the same problem here and making Albanian an official language isn't going to fix that.

Just look at the neighborhoods of Skopje and you see the clear institutional discrimination that has occurred over years between Albanian and Macedonian neighborhoods .. It's incomparable.

Ah,not this again...
Look mate, it's plain simple: urbanization depends on geography and landmark/public buildings/important objects placing.

I live in Stip. My district is in the outskirts of the town and as you can guess it's all constituted of lookalike houses,we have only 2 local stores (small and with inflated prices) and when it snows only the main street is being cleaned ,because of which we have problems getting the cars out due to the ice and snow on the streets. Sidewalks are a thing from the sci-fi movies and we walk through mud when it rains because of it. That little sidewalk-track to the school is made of concrete from large rocks instead of purified sand and i have to buy new pair of shoes/slippers/snickers/boots each year as a result. That's what geographic position does to town settlements.

On another example, there is a district just on the other side of the river Otinja (it divides the town in 2 just like Vardar in Skopje) where i used to live as a kid. It's literally a stone-throw away from the city center as you had put it. There is nothing but lookalike houses stacked one by another, with narrow streets without any sidewalks anywhere,and 2 cars can't possibly fit so it's always a one-way traffic.
Just across the bridge is the city square, Bank, the post office, IRS building,the cinema, big markets, a grade school ,a high school and the city council. Do I have to explain what are the streets,sidewalks,houses and apartments like there? Take a wild guess.

Opposite of that, there is a district on the other side of the town right at the exit. Now, you would expect it to be the same ghetto as other outskirts,right? But wait, there is a high school, a University campus, subsequently a hostel for students, a shoe factory, a textile factory complex, a couple of faculties, gas station,a big supermarket, couple of restaurants and a hotel. And just like that - the people who live there have broad streets, broad sidewalks, nice looking apartments and houses.

See the value of landmarks/public building/important objects placing?

It's like this everywhere in Macedonia, it's not a big conspiracy from the Macedonians to isolate the irrelevant,victimized, second-classed Albanians. This country has given you even more than you deserve, and you still have no respect and ask for more and more. Just like blacks use the racism card in the US, your people use the nationalism card here. Be grateful for what you have instead of whining and playing the victims all the time.It's embarrassing.

[vicsinad]

Albo wrote:

Not all renounced Christianity- and most did your right for benefits but mostly for the right to bare arms and land ownership..
We did what we had to do to survive as best as possible..
Early conversation were only a formality, where there are numerous accounts of Albanians preying at mosques of Fridays and going to church on Sundays.. but as years passed this died out..
People have all coverted over the centuries be it from Paganism to Christianity to Atheism , what's the difference..?

Although there are examples of where Albanians seemed privileged under the ottomans, this isn't the case, Albanians were always put on the front lines of war as cannon fodder and when it came to language and political rights under the empire were categorically denied language and religious instruction in Albanian... something that wasn't the case with others in the region.. I'm not sure how much you know about this topic?

First: Don't twist reality. The examples are not cases where Albanian Muslims seemed privileged -- they were privileged compared to their Christian brethren. Any other framing of the past is inaccurate at best, and most likely dishonest. Your Albanian kin want the Macedonians to recognize supposed genocide against Albanians committed by the Serbian regime, yet you can't even admit that the Albanian Muslims were actually privileged? And you have the nerve to suggest that it is the Macedonian majority who is impeding progress regarding ethnic relations in Macedonia.

Second: The biggest benefit was not land ownership or gun ownership. The biggest benefit -- as demonstrated through every single Western and Eastern source -- was the right to evade justice for crimes committed against Christians. This was a significant part of the Ottoman's Islamic ideology transplanted into the legal system.

Third: the type of conversions that happen in the secular world nowadays (from Christianity to Atheism, or from "x" to "y") happen not because converting to that religion will give you more rights or privileges over another group. They happen because the legal system in place protects them from state discrimination. The Albanian conversion to Islam did not happen under this pretext. It happened because they sold out part of their identity to be higher in the caste compared to their Macedonian Christian neighbors. Which leads to...

Fourth: The point Risto made was that: if Albanians are willing to sell out on part of their identity (religion) in order to be ahead of others, as during the Ottoman times, and if Albanians are willing to sell out their ethnic/national identity (even if preserving cultural elements) in order to be equal to others in the case of the Arvanites in Greece; then it's not a stretch to say that Albanians aren't always able to withstand local influence and can assimilate into the majority and are not as ethnically "solidified" as you make it seem.

[Albo]

What does that even mean? There are no countries in the world with 100% population consisted of 1 ethnicity, the simplest definition of majority is "something that is over 50%".
Anything between 51% and 100% is considered a majority and it holds a dominant role in whatever area it is present.

Or as Spok would say: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Yes a numerical majority of 51% is technically a majority..
But even your talking about multiethnic countries with multiethnic societies you won't find many countries with a 35% + Minority structure with the constitutional setup of Macedonia.

Tell me one prosperous democratic European country where they have a 25% minority without official language status throughout its territory? Most minorities in Europe with that % have either a conton or federal governing unit.. which we haven't even requested.

I'm not saying that the needs and desires of Macedonians need to be hindered in anyway..
What I'm saying is that we need to be on an equal status in practice not only on paper.

Equal treatment?
In Macedonia,in the private sector at least, if an Albanian walks to apply for a job and scores higher points than a Macedonian HE WILL GET THE JOB.

The private sector is another issue to the public sector which is entirely in the hands the government..
The issue is that the government sector has had a huge dismal disbalance over the decades when it comes to Albanian representation.. this is a fact.. If you read the thread #Ahmetis Village .. you will see proof of this..
This is the reason why positive discrimination was introduced through the Ohrid Agreement..

Whereas in state institutions, as i have pointed out from personal experience, the Albanian is just required to show up and file an application regardless of his scores.

Please, do talk some more of equality.

Also your absolutely wrong that all an Albanian needs to show up and they are accepted... there is a minimal criteria which should and needs to be met (as there should) I know of at least 3 relatives who have applied for jobs in the police force and failed.. either the physical test or written..

On the contrary I know of people who have been refused advancement into specialty units like ALFA not on any attribute test but simply for being Albanian, and if you see the number of Albanians in these advanced units be it in the police or Army.. they are nowhere near the 25% Mark.. let's not mention that then amount of senior Security roles held by Albanians is under 5%

Second class citizens?
In Macedonia, Albanians have elementary schools,high schools and University where they are taught in Albanian

Yes we have them.. have had them since before Yugoslavia .. well at least we had basic level education available.. for the higher level unfortunately to get it recognized and funded by the majority (with our own momey mind you) we had to go to war and have people die for it!

Also as I have previously mentioned our school infrastructure is largely PAID FOR AND MAINTAINED BY OUR DIASPORA!! WHYY?? Because the majority refuses to spend 25% of the budget to Albanian schools
I'll give you a recent example..

This is a school in the village of Kopanica where the state had refused to refurbish the school in 40 YEARS!
So the diaspora of the village were forced to raise €30,000 to refurbish it themselves!

Use Google translate or watch the video..

http://www.alsat-m.tv/kopanice-banoret-me-vet-kontribut-rinovojne-shkollen/

They're free to speak Albanian, they even have a national TV channel (MTV2) that is entirely in Albanian just to suit them

No MTV2 is a minority channel.. not exclusively Albanian, it broadcasts news and programs in all minority languages

Albanians...Hell,not to mention that all Macedonian products include Albanian on their labels, even in areas where Albanians are nowhere to be seen.

This is a ridiculous comment.. this isn't a right.. this is basic economics and marketing, all food items produced in the Balkans have multi lingual packaging simply because they export to regional countries.. this is not a right!

they have official municipal communication also in Albanian, they have their identification documents (identity Card,Drivers License,Passport) also in Albanian, they have road signs also in Albanian, they freely display Albanian flags (whereas rarely someone has the common courtesy of displaying the flag of the country they live in), they have schools, objects and streets named after Albanians

Yes they have these rights because blood was spilt for these rights, they had to sacrifice to receive these privileges that are quite normal in places like Switzerland or Belgium with a large number of minorities.

They have the Badinter majority rule in decision making

So do Macedonians in Albanian majority municipalities!

at least one Albanian party has always been in power since the independence (even though Macedonian parties aren't obligated to do so, it wouldn't be unconstitutional and yet no one has done it so far),

Well this comes back to my point that Albanians are a stabilizing factor in Macedonia and non participation in a government will create a crisis- No other minority in the country has the ability to do that.. this is why we can't be seen as a simple minority.

Macedonians, the absolute majority of the country's population, don't have a mandatory quota when it comes to state jobs, but Albanians somehow do.
Please, do tell me more how all of the above are features of second class citizens.

The quota applies along all ethnic lines!

May I remind you once again, an Albanian party has been in power ever since our indepencence. You've had ministry seats, directors seats, managerial seats, mayors seats...So Albanians HAVE been a part of decision making in this country for 25 years now. Whenever a government decision is made, it needed the "green light" from the Albanian party in the government coalition. Practically, ALL government decisions to date are made with the consent and approval of an Albanian party.

Albanians aren't totally not to blame here.. I understand that.. the have been part of all governments but what happens is that the platforms of the Albanian parties aren't taken into consideration by the ruling Majority Macedonian party..

So Albanians may be part of the government but have very little influences in things like budgetary distribution.. this has been the issue the DUI has been under most pressure about... the inability to impliment any of its campaign promises in the past 10 years.

How will an agreement for a foreign investment be more valid if it is signed in Albanian rather than in Macedonian?
How will the notice for liquidation of a company written in Albanian give jobs to those people more than if it was written in Macedonian?

How will an eviction notice evict people from their home more if it's written in Albanian rather than in Macedonian?

It's symbolic... and shows that the state is as much ours as yours and that we are a factor in its history it's creation its stability and its prosperity and without us it can't funtion!
Just look at the problems the Serbs create in Kosovo with under 5% of the population.
If we were to do what they do in Mitrovica Macedonia wouldn't survive.

Ah,not this again...
Look mate, it's plain simple: urbanization depends on geography and landmark/public buildings/important objects placing.

Yesss.. exactly Albanians live basically in the CENTER OF SKOPJE.. This is their geography...
Important objects and public buildings are largly purposely left not of Cair..
The Albanian parties of Skopje city has never gone under an urbanization phase like the rest of the city..
200m from then city center you still have no sewage connection but village style septic tanks!

Which Macedonia neighborhoods on the other side of the river still have septic tanks?

t's like this everywhere in Macedonia, it's not a big conspiracy from the Macedonians to isolate the irrelevant,victimized, second-classed Albanians. This country has given you even more than you deserve, and you still have no respect and ask for more and more.

Look I know Macedonia isn't the most prosperous country in the world and that many Macedonians suffer also if not more in some parts of the country..
Until everything is equal on paper and in practice and the same issue go on unsorted for decades to come we will still be singing the same song...

We don't want Moreee... we want what we deserve and to receive according to our contributions to the state coffers...
We don't want to live off the back of the majority but nor do we want the majority to take from us and give little in return!