Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8531

    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
    George, I would imagine a name change will be made official for international use, thereby places like Australia will adhere to the new name in all official correspondence.

    The greater issue will be if Macedonia, having capitulated on the name will also capitulate on 'a name for all uses' scenario as envisaged and promoted by the greeks...this is where it will get particularly humiliating for the Macedonian's in Australia (i'm using Oz as an example).
    Here in Australia, the politically connected, numerically and financially stronger greek lobby will insist that every object named 'Macedonian' today in Australia be renamed to whatever Gruevski & Co. sold to the greek side.

    Slowly the greeks are stripping us of all dignity as a sovereign people, they've taken away our symbols, they're on the verge of renaming us and finally we will hand over our soul to them...not sure if anything matters after that...
    That will happen regardless of the 'extent' of the capitulation.
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • fyrOM
      Banned
      • Feb 2010
      • 2180

      Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
      Ozimak, do you even know who you're debating with? Your delusion is much further advanced than you think...
      Are you alluding to having some high position and hence some privileged information and if so please share the title of your office and what this privileged information is which conclusively supports your position on the matter.

      I have merely stated my interpretation of the facts…it is definite such a proposal was made without question and likewise it is definite it was rejected as are other points equally definite. I have not argued against the facts.

      Many of the posts here sound like people think the suggested name change and possible referendum are a current act and a forgone conclusion…note it was a past suggestion which was rejected in the past and there is no current new proposal. It hasn’t happened and it aint over till its over. I cannot and will not say give up and I don’t believe the government has either…delusional…maybe…but time will tell...this year and next...not far to go.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Originally posted by OziMak View Post
        Are you alluding to having some high position and hence some privileged information and if so please share the title of your office and what this privileged information is which conclusively supports your position on the matter.

        I have merely stated my interpretation of the facts…it is definite such a proposal was made without question and likewise it is definite it was rejected as are other points equally definite. I have not argued against the facts.

        Many of the posts here sound like people think the suggested name change and possible referendum are a current act and a forgone conclusion…note it was a past suggestion which was rejected in the past and there is no current new proposal. It hasn’t happened and it aint over till its over. I cannot and will not say give up and I don’t believe the government has either…delusional…maybe…but time will tell...this year and next...not far to go.
        I was alluding to the fact that SoM wrote the post with the 2-3 options, NOT me. Once you get out of your bong-induced delusion, maybe you will be able to think more clearly.

        Regardless, SoM is correct and you are WRONG.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • fyrOM
          Banned
          • Feb 2010
          • 2180

          Originally posted by julie View Post
          OM, you are an intelligent man
          Am I one of a few that can see there is no turning back? We are doomed. With a capital F.
          I can understand why you might think the current picture looks bad and I hope my comments might raise peoples hopes that it aint yet over bar the siren.

          please can you point me to what gives you the shred of hope, that you can see a positive outcome for us.
          Julie I have previously stated elsewhere my reasoning as to why such an interpretation as the one presented in this thread has merit so without elaborating on the points to recap in brief…

          The police and army where modernized and rearmed.

          The government has been active in globe trotting persuading other countries to recognise RoM by her rightful name…we are upto 130 odd…does anyone know how many countries have recognized Macedonia since the government first took office.

          The government has forged extensive foreign investment including securing the oil pipeline to go through Macedonia.

          The government has made great effort to encourage and enable as many of the diaspora to get their citizenship and hence voting rights in order.

          The government has spent and continues to spend large amounts on archeological digs.

          The government has strengthened the economy extensively since first taking office and corrected many of the deficiencies left by the previous government…and they were vast.

          The government has excelled encouraging and enabling the young to peruse a higher level of education.

          The government has tackled corruption to a large extent.

          The government has through their effort altered the image of Macedonia to the world as a forward and capable legal society concerned for the welfare of its citizens including minorities and thereby enhancing Macedonia’s credibility.

          The government has brought the ICJ case to force entry into the eu and nato where most members already recognise Macedonia.

          My interpretation of Gruevskis body language and conversation with Milenko on the Milenko show December 2009.

          None of these actions say to me the government is going to capitulate…if they were then why not just do what Crvenkovski and Co did ie rob the place and get ready to piss off at the first opportunity instead of laying down roots.

          Comment

          • fyrOM
            Banned
            • Feb 2010
            • 2180

            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
            Regardless, SoM is correct and you are WRONG.
            Don’t beri gajle…March is here and April around the corner and before we know it Christmas and the results of the ICJ case. With the new year will bring the new actions. A year slips by very quickly. Time will tell. I truly hope you are wrong not for any personal ego trip but for what it means for our collective identity. If you are right Ill have a drink to commiserate.

            Comment

            • Volk
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 894

              Originally posted by OziMak View Post
              I can understand why you might think the current picture looks bad and I hope my comments might raise peoples hopes that it aint yet over bar the siren.



              Julie I have previously stated elsewhere my reasoning as to why such an interpretation as the one presented in this thread has merit so without elaborating on the points to recap in brief…

              The police and army where modernized and rearmed.

              The government has been active in globe trotting persuading other countries to recognise RoM by her rightful name…we are upto 130 odd…does anyone know how many countries have recognized Macedonia since the government first took office.

              The government has forged extensive foreign investment including securing the oil pipeline to go through Macedonia.

              The government has made great effort to encourage and enable as many of the diaspora to get their citizenship and hence voting rights in order.

              The government has spent and continues to spend large amounts on archeological digs.

              The government has strengthened the economy extensively since first taking office and corrected many of the deficiencies left by the previous government…and they were vast.

              The government has excelled encouraging and enabling the young to peruse a higher level of education.

              The government has tackled corruption to a large extent.

              The government has through their effort altered the image of Macedonia to the world as a forward and capable legal society concerned for the welfare of its citizens including minorities and thereby enhancing Macedonia’s credibility.

              The government has brought the ICJ case to force entry into the eu and nato where most members already recognise Macedonia.

              My interpretation of Gruevskis body language and conversation with Milenko on the Milenko show December 2009.

              None of these actions say to me the government is going to capitulate…if they were then why not just do what Crvenkovski and Co did ie rob the place and get ready to piss off at the first opportunity instead of laying down roots.
              OM, must of what you pointed out is debatable but there is also some truth there as well.

              Either out of sheer stupidity or outright treason, the government has announced to the world that the best we can ever hope for is RM (skopje) - as a 'settlement'.

              This is while greece argues that we are slavs, they are Macedonia and Macedonians, they own our history, symbols, ect..

              What do they expect? the IC will say ok, you have been good... what do you get with that? a big fat fuck all, you only stand to lose, demoralize and spit on our nation...
              Makedonija vo Srce

              Comment

              • fyrOM
                Banned
                • Feb 2010
                • 2180

                The ICJ case as I understand it is not about deciding who is a Macedonian or not so if the government has made it known RoM Skopje was on the table at one time and was also rejected at that time it is not the courts business to force Greece to accept this name. the only issue before the court is has Macedonia made reasonable effort to find a solution ie upholding her part of the deal and has Greece prevented Macedonia entering any organisations even under fyrom solely because of not having reached a solution on the name issue ie upholding their part of the deal. That’s the be all and end all before the court.

                One would think Greece’s veto is a clear breach yet Greece is claming they did not do the breach but instead it was other members who voted against Macedonia…I would guess they will put up cypress as the fall guy…a Greek by any other name.

                The arguments from both sides will be interesting.

                The question is can Macedonia get into the eu and nato even if it is as fyrom.
                Domestically this will act as a release valve.
                More importantly externally it removes Greece’s strangle hold in the name negotiation.

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  What a useless thread.
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    Originally posted by OziMak
                    Many of the posts here sound like people think the suggested name change and possible referendum are a current act and a forgone conclusion....
                    The fact that Macedonia's name has been changed is already a foregone conclusion. Go to the UN and see how they refer to us. Some of our posters here don't seem to have the capacity to grasp this simple fact, and instead, are still trying to throw up excuses for traitors, like our 'leaders' aren't capable of further stupidity.
                    The question is can Macedonia get into the eu and nato even if it is as fyrom.
                    Why would it want to? To cement our disgrace? Is that what you want, so it can enact the 'release valve' in Macedonia?
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      I hadn't been to Maknews for many months but I had a slight conniption when I recently read some posts from some poorly guided Macedonians where they instantly commenced blaming SDSM for something about Milososki's letter to the UN.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        What's in a name?

                        What's in a name?



                        By Peter Hill

                        Wednesday, 2 February 2011



                        Greek national identity seems to be so fragile that it is threatened even by a dispute over who 'owns' Alexander the Great.




                        On 28 November 2010 Professor John Melville-Jones, Winthrop Professor in the Department of Classics and Ancient History at the University of Western Australia, gave an address in Melbourne to a Greek organization called the “Australian-Macedonian Advisory Council”. Professor Melville-Jones’ address was entitled “The Importance of Historical Truth and the Macedonian Issue”. In this address Professor Melville-Jones beats the drum for the Greek Government in its dispute with the “Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia”.



                        Professor Melville-Jones, while a specialist in classics and ancient history, cannot claim the same expertise in the modern history of South-Eastern Europe or the South-Slavonic languages. It is rash for a scholar to suggest that a particular ethnic group in Australia, in this case the Australian Macedonians, while good citizens of this country, are not intelligent enough to understand who they are, or who they are not. Nationality is a matter of self-ascription and the Slavonic-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia have been calling themselves Makedonci for at least 150 years. The Greeks have not been calling themselves Ellines for much longer than that.



                        The people that today call themselves Ellines “Hellenes” or “Greeks” did not adopt this name until the 19th century. Before that they had called themselves Romii “Romans” - because they had been citizens of the (Eastern-) Roman Empire. Even today, the indigenous term for “Greekness” is Romiosini, not the artificial pseudo-classical term Elinikotita.



                        Nations are, by definition, products of the modern era. It is often said that Australia became a nation at Gallipoli. Most scholars believe that the French became a nation during the French Revolution and the subsequent Napoleonic wars, when soldiers were asked for the first time to fight for la nation. Others, however, believe that the French did not become a nation until the end of the 19th century, when, with the advent of compulsory universal schooling, pupils could be taught who they were or at least who they were supposed to be.



                        Some European nations probably did not come into existence until national television reached every household in the second half of the 20th century. Certainly, even in the 1950s, peasants in some parts of Europe seemed to have no clear idea what the name of their supposed nation actually meant.



                        The Macedonians became a nation during the 20th century, the Greeks during the 19th. Some of the details of the modern Greek ethnogenesis can be read in Roger Just’s celebrated 1989 article “Triumph of the Ethnos”. But Greek national identity seems to be so fragile that it is threatened even by a dispute over who "owns" Alexander the Great.



                        The Hellenic Republic claims that the mere use of the name Macedonia by the neighbouring republic is in itself irredentist, because there is an area of Northern Greece called Macedonia. But there are probably dozens of similar situations around the world: Luxemburg is a Grand Duchy and also a province of neighbouring Belgium, Azerbaijan is an independent republic and also a province in northern Iran. The name France means “land of the Franks” (in German Frankreich) - but there is a province in Germany called Franken, in English Franconia, meaning “land of the Franks”.



                        The Hellenic Republic claims that it feels threatened by its small neighbour. This is hardly convincing, since the Hellenic Republic has one of the most powerful armies in NATO, while its small neighbour has only symbolic military forces, but in order to accommodate Greek sensibilities, the Republic of Macedonia changed its flag to avoid using symbols found on the territory of the present-day Hellenic Republic and changed its constitution to state explicitly that the Republic has no territorial claims against neighbouring states.



                        The perceived threat may actually be quite different. Does the Government of the Hellenic Republic need the dispute with its small neighbour in order to bolster national unity?
                        Last edited by George S.; 03-04-2011, 07:48 AM.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • fyrOM
                          Banned
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 2180

                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          What a useless thread.
                          I could be a useless thread if the intent was to crack the governments nuts and hang them because clearly the name has not been changed an hence the crime they are accused of has not happened but as an exercise in logic it is an excellent way to illustrate a point.

                          The government suggested RoM Skopje
                          Everyone jumps up on the hang them they are traitors bandwagon…logical right.
                          Maybe or maybe Not.

                          What would have made Gruevski ok such a proposal…traitor or gun to his head or other.

                          1. Gun to his head.
                          Lets assume the usa or any power held a gun to his head and said you must make this proposal.
                          What else did he do…ie in what context did he make the proposal what else was going on at the time.
                          To make this illustration in logic short…as some have said I post too long…I will only use 1 point from my Post031.
                          The government could say to the power holding a gun to his head

                          1. You know if the government signs on this proposal by themselves there will be a revolt not only in Macedonia but wherever Macedonians live around the world…do you really want to radicalise a few million Macedonians especially the one working in your countries offices.

                          2. To make this work it has to go to a referendum which you guys can fudge but this issue…ie the name and identity…is not like should the DDV…ie vat or gst…tax be raised or not it doesn’t just affect Macedonians in RoM but everywhere so the government has to prepare the diaspora for a referendum.

                          3. The government could have just made a press release from Skopje that any final decision would be by referendum and left it at that for the diaspora to make their own realisations and take necessary steps but you know how lazy or distracted people can be and may not have their papers in order by the time a snap referendum is called in favor of the external power. The government could argue that there would be a last minute rush by people wanting to get their papers in order so lets have a long lead time with regular notices in the papers.

                          4. Instead of doing the above the government actually sent teams into the diaspora to help them get their papers in order. Was this not at great expense. Would it not cause a fan fare. Why do it. Think about the sub text. If someone wanted to tell you something or sort something out with you couldn’t they just pick up the phone. Isn’t their fronting up at your door from a great distance saying they think what they have to say is very important in fact so important that they are prepared to make all this effort and expence…ie wake up this is really important.

                          5. Why would the government go to all this trouble and expense. Do they expect support from the diaspora for their proposal. Going to all that effort you could easily make that assumption.

                          6. Wait a minute…hasn’t the diaspora made it plainly clear they are absolutely against any name change so wouldn’t they be against the governments proposal and the government would already know this so why the huge effort into the diaspora…remember this is world wide and would have cost a bit.

                          Maybe the government WANTS the referendum to their own proposal to fail…isn’t this a short stop situation and hence doesn’t it mean it’s a dummy proposal. doesn’t it then remove the pressure…ie gun…from Gruevskis head…what can I do the people don’t want it and there’s too many ballot boxes around the world to fudge them all.

                          RESULT…By their action Gruevski and the government have shown they are not traitors could not be traitors and in fact can be said patriots for creating a situation which throws a spanner in the works in any internal or external force attempt to force a name change from ever being possible.

                          Option 2. No gun to his head. To counter the Greek red line.
                          All of the above except the reason is to show the Greeks as being recalcitrant pricks who it would be impossible to reach a compromise with no matter how hard you try…isn’t RoM Skopje a pretty good offer…the Greeks just want their red line and nothing else and this is not in the spirit of compromise hence Greece’s strangle hold on entry to any world organization should be made invalid let Macedonia in resulting in removing Greece’s leverage and hence promote a more reasonable compromising mindset from them.

                          RESULT…Veto gets a bullet in the head and Macedonia is in the eu nato the human rights organization to stick it back to the geeks. Fyrom is irrelevant if it gets you a seat at the table and an active voice.
                          Hardly the actions of a traitor.

                          The fact that Macedonia's name has been changed is already a foregone conclusion. Go to the UN and see how they refer to us. Some of our posters here don't seem to have the capacity to grasp this simple fact, and instead, are still trying to throw up excuses for traitors, like our 'leaders' aren't capable of further stupidity.
                          Quote:
                          The question is can Macedonia get into the eu and nato even if it is as fyrom.
                          Why would it want to? To cement our disgrace? Is that what you want, so it can enact the 'release valve' in Macedonia?
                          You have to be able to see past the face value of things.

                          So RTG if this thread could be used to change people thinking processes maybe it wasn’t such a useless thread after all.

                          Need I go through the other points in Post031.
                          Last edited by fyrOM; 03-03-2011, 01:45 PM.

                          Comment

                          • julie
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2009
                            • 3869

                            OM, referendums have been rigged.
                            This one will be rigged
                            Shiptarite worldwide will be voting
                            Macedonian diaspora will not
                            3 years ago Gruevski came up with the Skapani Skopje
                            Why cant you see what he is doing?
                            He is further enforcing the Interim Accord through the ICJ
                            You continue to paint a picture that Gruevski cannot do anything but succumb to Greece's demands
                            For fuck sake, wake up, stop defending him, our flag is gone, our kutlesh sonce is gone, we are doomed, and our demise is there in black and white and you cant see what he is doing
                            Any referendum that comes up will not be like Australia's referendums, you cant see it
                            Stop defending the cockhead, he has not stood up to anyone
                            When Gruevski was in Australia shaking Rudd's hand why the fuck did he not insist on us being called Macedonians????He signed reciprocal pension agreements here with him, Rudd did not hold a gun to his head. Australia would have respected his wishes

                            It saddens me that people cannot wake up in the diaspora and see the firm writing on the wall, we are doomed OM, the decision has already been made, he has sold us out, and watch Gruevski retire in a western country , with UMD full support, they have been going along with the Macedonian government and working with them all this time. What the government has not realised is that MOST of the diaspora cannot be brainwashed into slaves and serfdom like he has done with the Republic.
                            And whilst am there am fucking sick and tired of us not being able to refer to our mother country as MACEDONIA. WE ARE MACEDONIANS. OUR NAME IS MACEDONIA. OUR HERITAGE IS MACEDONIAN , WE HAVE MACEDONIAN BLOOD, I AM NOT A FUCKING SKOPJEN, GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS
                            "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              What makes Ozimak post so much mindless dribble on this forum...idiot, gun to his head or other?

                              Phoenix - is that google program available yet?

                              Did anyone see RtG's dog hear one hand clapping?

                              How long has this forum being running, how many times have we shown treason and illogical nonsense for what it is and still the same old tired posters come up with the same old tired propaganda.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • Phoenix
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 4671

                                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                                What makes Ozimak post so much mindless dribble on this forum...idiot, gun to his head or other?

                                Phoenix - is that google program available yet?
                                TV, apparently some Macedonian Web Developers are working on it...oh, hang on, that's another thread altogether. I'm trying to get into the parallel universe thing that OM finds to be particularly lucid...
                                Last edited by Phoenix; 03-03-2011, 10:33 PM.

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