Origins of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    #16
    Here's the link to Clement Moore's book for more info - http://books.google.com/books?id=nsU...age&q=&f=false
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

    Comment

    • TrueMacedonian
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3810

      #17
      From George Sphrantzes Chronicle (1401-1477) from the book 'The Fall of the Byzantine Empire' Translated (sometimes wrongly) by Marios Philippidis;

      page 87- XLIII

      3. While I was in the suburbs of Rome and in the city, the sultan, the lord of the impious, marched against Albania, put its lord, Scanderbeg, to flight, seized and destroyed the territory, and built a fortress near its capital, called Kroya, in order to wage war against him. The sultan then returned to the vicinity of Constantinople.

      page 90- XLV

      2. In January of the same year [1468], Scanderbeg, the Lord of Albania, died of natural causes; one part of his territories passed into the hands of the Venetian senate; the other part was taken by the son of Scanderbegs sister, who had become a Turk when he was sent to the sultan's court by Scanderbeg.

      This is all that Sphrantzes mentions of Kastriot.
      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3810

        #18
        The family of Castriot had its origin in Macedonia, and anciently ruled over Epire with renown.
        George Castriot, surnamed Scanderbeg, king of Albania By Clement Clarke Moore page 9.

        The book is interesting to say the least. Irregardless of the inconsistancies of Moore and who and what he thinks the inhabitants were. According to him John Kastriot was a "grecian prince" on the same page. Absurd but nonetheless an interesting.
        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #19
          The book was written in the mid 19th century so it is possible that this westerner is referring to Kastriot as a 'Grecian' in the sense of a ruler of East Christian lands. I am yet to notice any reference to Kastriot as a 'Hellene' (the new ethnonym for the new state in Morea), and I doubt I will in this or any serious book.

          Thanks for the link TM.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #20
            His terminology overlaps and needs to be understood properly. Here is a short summary and list of citations from the book.

            On pages 10-11 he refers to Kastriot acquiring the Turkish, Arabic, Greek, Italian and Sclavonian languages, which is a contradiction if one takes into consideration his later mention of Kastriot's mother, who was daughter of the noble king of the Tribullians and was named Voislava (written as Voisana by the author).

            On page 9 he refers to Kastriot's father as a Grecian prince, and on page 264 he refers to the army of Kastriot as Grecian with a number of Italian horsemen.

            On page 168 he refers to the following composition of Kastriot's army:

            The Albanians were almost all of them archers; the rest, being Italians and Germans (Almaines), served with arquebuses and cross-bows. There were also some Sclavonians, more skilled in the use of the sword than of the bow; who, upon news of the levy of soldiers, being allured by the hope of plunder, came to serve with the Albanians as volunteers, and without any pay. In those days, people came constantly into Epire from the nations around, to serve under Scanderbeg, who was the only captain perpetually under arms and engaged in war with the Turks.

            This indicates that Kastriot's army was cosmopolitan to say the least.

            On page 104 Kastriot is referred to as an Albanian prince, on pages 323 and 330 he writes of apparent letters (originally cited by Knolles) from Kastriot and the Sultan, in which the title of Prince of Albinenses and Epirots is used for the former. On page 185 the governor of Kruja called "Uranocontes" is reported to have addressed his men in the Albanian, sometimes in the Italian language, and part of Kastriot's troops are called Albanians on page 186.

            On page 84 he speaks of a battle of Kastriot and his Albanian troops against the Venetians who had on their right wing a commander and a chosen guard of Sclavonians. On page 140 he makes mention of a certain "Moses" who carries a Sclavonian sword by his side and is a Dibrian. On page 32 Dibra is cited as the place where the holy city of Sfetigrade is located, a name in the Sclavonian language. There is also the mention of Sfetigradians and Epirots in the geographical sense on page 169. The people of Dibra were not properly Albanians either in name or language, but instead, were Bulgarians or Tribullians, resembling Macedonia in manners, while their habits are rather those of foreigners than of the Epirots, and some of their customs are abhorrent to those of the Albanians, as they retain the ceremonies and superstitions of the Greeks, all cited on page 157. Clearly, the above terminology can be manipulated to suit a number of theories. The below can also fall in that category (from page 327):

            .......no true friendship could exist between the Turks and the Epirots, since they were natural enemies to each other; than he should attentatively bear in mind how the Infidel, when secure of not being troubled by the arms of the Albanians, had immediately directed his forces against the Rascians and Tribullians; and, after subduing them, against the Thracians and Illyrians, and when the empire of the Greeks was subverted, had likewise added the territory of Trebisond to his dominions......

            Who exactly are the Tribullians, Illyrians and Thracians? It cannot be the Albanians, as the Kastriot-Venetian/Sclavonian battle cited earlier also mentions on page 85 that Scanderbeg, with a body of horse, broke through their battle, and would have cut off all hope of victory from his enemies, had it not been for the Illyrians, who, with their wonted agility, came to the aid of the bodyguard, and enabled them to keep their ground against the Albanians. If the Tribullians are Serbs it goes against what is said on page 53: What do we see of the Greek empire? What of the Bulgarians and Servians?

            On page 105 the Sultan speaks of the province of Macedon as being filled with their enemies, and on page 165 Kastriot sent a contingent of soldier to the frontiers of Macedon, to protect the inhabitants of that part of the country from the inroads of the Turks. As mentioned earlier also, on page 9 reference is made to Macedonia as the homeland of Kastriot's ancestry. On page 355 he refers to the princes and people of Epire, Macedonia, Sclavonia and Dalmatia all furnishing troops and assistance to Kastriot.

            ---------------

            There are several more references to Macedonia, when I have time I wil go through some more.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • TrueMacedonian
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 3810

              #21
              Some more from Clement Moore's book on the "Dibrians", page 24;

              Scanderbeg arrived with wonderful celerity in the upper country of Dibra, or Dibria, in the borders of Epirus, about 70 miles from Croia, accompanied by 300 Epirot soldiers gathered to him out of the battle. The Dibrians were noted for their activity and valor, and much esteemed by Scanderbeg on account of their fidelity, and for the many services which they had rendered in the protection and defence of the state under John, his father, when molested by the Turks. Scanderbeg had ordered his march so as to arrive at the town of Dibra in the night. He secretly sent for some of the principal people to come to him. Having made known his purpose, he was greeted with the most unbounded demonstrations of joy and affection; and every aid and service which could be rendered, was proffered with the utmost alacrity.
              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3810

                #22
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                The book was written in the mid 19th century so it is possible that this westerner is referring to Kastriot as a 'Grecian' in the sense of a ruler of East Christian lands. I am yet to notice any reference to Kastriot as a 'Hellene' (the new ethnonym for the new state in Morea), and I doubt I will in this or any serious book.

                Thanks for the link TM.
                No problem SoM. We're definitely looking at what a Westerner has interpretted as far as "race" and "ethnicity" goes on the balkans. I think Risto Stefov made a comment in a recent interview where he states that westerners just like labelling things to make them seem more black and white and less difficult. Too bad nothing has an easy explanation in the Balkans in any period of time.
                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3810

                  #23



                  Ardenica or Ardenitsa does not sound very Albanian to me.
                  Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                  Comment

                  • Gj. Puleski
                    Member
                    • Oct 2009
                    • 61

                    #24
                    Here a modern aspect of G. Kastriot's influence on the history of the Balkan peoples


                    До

                    Министерството за култура

                    Сектор за управен и инспекциски надзор

                    Скопје


                    ПРЕДМЕТ : ПРИЈАВА против непознат сторител


                    Почитувани,

                    Во центарот на Скопје, од левата страна на Вардар, се наоѓа споменик на Ѓорѓија Кастриот - Скендер Бег. Меѓутоа, името на личноста што е претставена со споменикот е напишано само на албански јазик и со албанска латиница, што е спротивно на Законот за употребата на македонскиот јазик. Ве молам да се погрижите тој текст да биде напишан и на македонски јазик и со кирилско писмо.

                    Однапред благодарен,


                    Ѓорѓија Пулески

                    Во Скопје, 07.06.2009 г.
                    Last edited by Gj. Puleski; 11-01-2009, 03:23 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #25
                      Have you had a response to this GP?
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Gj. Puleski
                        Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 61

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                        Have you had a response to this GP?
                        Yes, I had.

                        They answered that the monument of G. Castriot is posted by Chair Municipality (Општина Чаир) and that the Ministry of culture issued an order (dated july the 01, 2009) to the Municipality to add an appropriate text in Macedonian language. I have checked 1 month ago and there was still no text in Macedonian. Next days I will chack again. The Општина Чаир is prevalently populated with Albanians and its mayor is a very nationalistic man. He posted the monument without respecting any law-procedure (for instance, without asking the City for building permission). The monument was made in Albania and transported to Skopje in a very pompeus and provocative way. The discovering of the monument was in the same manner. I have doubts that he will just like that obey the order of the Ministry of cilture
                        Last edited by Gj. Puleski; 11-03-2009, 05:52 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Gj. Puleski
                          Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 61

                          #27
                          До Министерството за култура

                          Сектор за управен и инспекциски надзор

                          Скопје


                          ПРЕДМЕТ : ПРЕТСТАВКА

                          ВРСКА : Ваше известување бр.53-5172/7 од 28.07.2009



                          Почитувани,


                          Со мојата пријава која кај вас е заведена под бр.53-5172/1 од 21.04.2009 г. ви пријавив дека во центарот на Скопје, од левата страна на Вардар, се наоѓа споменик на Ѓорѓија Кастриот - Скендер Бег, на кој името на личноста што е претставена со споменикот е напишано само на албански јазик и со албанска латиница, што е спротивно на Законот за употребата на македонскиот јазик.

                          Со вашиот допис бр.53-5172/7 од 28.07.2009 г. ме известувате дека, реагирајќи по мојата пријава од 21.04.2009 и ургенцијата од 08.06.2009, на 01.07.2009 г. сте извршиле инспекциски надзор, после што е издадено Решение за наредба до Општина Чаир со кое од Општината се бара во определен рок текстот поставен на предметното спомен-обележје да биде лекториран и објавен и на македонски јазик и на неговото кирилско писмо.

                          Сега ве известувам дека кај споменикот и натаму НЕМА НИКАКВА ПРОМЕНА, т.е. името на Ѓорѓија Кастриот - Скендер Бег е напишано само на албански јазик и со албанска латиница, па од таа причина ве молам за преземање на соодветни законски мерки против прекршителот и за едно известување до мене за преземеното. Напомнувам дека ова мое барање за повратна информација е базирано на член 18 став 2 од Законот за општата управна постапка и на член 9 од Законот за постапување по претставки и предлози.

                          Однапред благодарен за одговорот,

                          ХХХХХХ УУУУУ

                          Во Скопје, 05.11.2009 г
                          Last edited by Gj. Puleski; 11-06-2009, 09:03 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #28
                            Well done GP. This kind of "grass roots" protesting is essential.
                            This should not be allowed to go away!
                            If you think we can help in any way, please let us know.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Pelister
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 2742

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Gj. Puleski View Post
                              Yes, I had.

                              They answered that the monument of G. Castriot is posted by Chair Municipality (Општина Чаир) and that the Ministry of culture issued an order (dated july the 01, 2009) to the Municipality to add an appropriate text in Macedonian language. I have checked 1 month ago and there was still no text in Macedonian. Next days I will chack again. The Општина Чаир is prevalently populated with Albanians and its mayor is a very nationalistic man. He posted the monument without respecting any law-procedure (for instance, without asking the City for building permission). The monument was made in Albania and transported to Skopje in a very pompeus and provocative way. The discovering of the monument was in the same manner. I have doubts that he will just like that obey the order of the Ministry of cilture
                              Keep agitating them. The law is the law, and in any case we have a claim to him from his mother's side.

                              Comment

                              • TRAVOLTA
                                Member
                                • Nov 2009
                                • 504

                                #30
                                songs abaut georgija kastriot and his family.


                                Here are excerpts of the two songs in western Macedonian dialects:

                                A part of the song "The dream of queen Voislava"

                                Son sonila Voislava kralica
                                son sonila od son se isplasila
                                Mi rodila bela luta zmija
                                So kriljata Epir pokrivala
                                So glavata carigrad dopirala
                                Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
                                Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

                                Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
                                sho je ova chudo nevideno
                                Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
                                Se radveshe Ivanova roda
                                Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
                                Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

                                Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
                                Georgija - ime hristijansko
                                Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

                                __________________________________________________ ________
                                A small part of the song about the " Beautiful Maria Andronika"


                                Ushche zora ne zorila
                                Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
                                Mi razbudi sina Georgija
                                Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
                                Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

                                Zdravo zivo tije si storile
                                I na divan skrisno besedeje
                                Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
                                Da si vratit zemji porobeni
                                Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
                                S crno kafe i s luta rakija
                                Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
                                Lichna moma kako samovila....

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