Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

edited

wasted words on an almost extinct race of people

[Karposh]

Came across the following Greek opinion piece, although it contains the usual racist slurs (which I have left unedited in this instance), there are a number of statements made by the author which you don't often hear from a Greek

Wow, I never thought I'd live to see the day when a Greek finally finds it in his heart to accept the inescapable reality that we are not an invention of Tito. The winds of change indeed. Not only that but he actually goes into bat for us on a number of occasions throughout the article and even calls out Greece for her irrational behaviour towards Macedonia and the Macedonians:

First, he puts up the example of Ellis Island immigration records as an example of early Macedonian nationhood.

Greece has long maintained that Macedonians, meaning the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, are not a “true” nation, and that their language is not a “true” language. Both these assertions are false.
It is difficult to know exactly when people started self-identifying as “Macedonians” in an ethnic sense. But there is evidence that at least by the end of the 19th century some did. The records of Ellis Island show that in 1897 there were immigrants to the US, who stated their ethnicity as Macedonian. In all, about nine thousand people arriving at Ellis Island between 1897 and 1924 declared their ethnicity to be Macedonian.

Then he defends the Macedonian language.

There is a famous quip, which pretty much sums it up: “a language is a dialect with an army and navy”. The “decision” on whether something is a language or a dialect is never a purely historical or linguistic matter, but mainly a political one. It is, therefore, quite a distortion to maintain –as many in Greece, in Bulgaria and in Serbia do to this day – that the Macedonian national consciousness was “invented” by Tito’s Yugoslavia. On the contrary, Federal Yugoslavia’s policy in the region was an acknowledgement of a nationalism that already existed for at least five decades. So, though the process was protracted and incongruous – which is hardly surprising – what emerged between the end of the nineteenth century and the break-up of Yugoslavia was in no uncertain terms a Macedonian nation.

And, incredibly, he even speaks of the Macedonian minority in Greece.

The darkest reason, though, for dismissing FYROM as a historical joke was avoiding the question: what will become of those who do not fall into the neat categories of negotiated history? What will happen with the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece? What will happen with the Greek Slavic-Macedonian speakers and their descendants that were deprived of all rights in their country, after they fled as political refugees to Yugoslavia in the late 1940s?
Greece has maintained that an ethnic Macedonian minority does not exist in its territory. This was ostensibly a strategy directed against Macedonian "irredentism", which might have sought a pretext in the protection of this minority in order to claim Greek territory. Though there is historical precedent in Europe for such an irredentist manipulation of minorities, in reality Greece has been masking its own policies of forced Hellenization in the region: ethnic Macedonian communities in Greece have been suppressed, from the 1920s to the present day. For decades they lived under police surveillance, and their language was forbidden. Even their songs were banned, and for years they were played as instrumentals, without the lyrics. Statistical recording of this population was stopped (since the state considered the minority non-existent), so there is very little concrete information on its scale or its evolution.
After the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, there was also a large number of Greek citizens that were ethnic Macedonians, or in any case Slavic-Macedonian speakers, who fought on the losing side and fled to Yugoslav Macedonia. These people were deprived of citizenship and property. They and their descendants have been excluded from all subsequent laws that provided for a right of return for political refugees.
These issues are not simply a matter of historical acknowledgment – though that is not in itself insignificant. They are also very much of the present: there is still an ethnic Macedonian minority in northern Greece, and there are still descendants of refugees with no right to return or to claim property. Both these groups are continually deprived not just of the right to have the historical injustices against them officially acknowledged, but also of basic freedoms.

Then there's this – the admission that “Greece was the aggressor”.

Still, the deal is hardly fair. Although a “composite name” (meaning to affix some additional designation in front of “Macedonia”, such as “North” which was finally the preferred choice) has been considered the basis of an eventual solution since the beginning, it is far from self-evident that this is the reasonable and just compromise it is purported to be. On the contrary, agreeing to rename their country Republic of North Macedonia is the price Macedonians are paying so that they can be allowed to call themselves what they have been calling themselves for almost a century and a half – without their economy being strangled and their country blocked from participating in international organisations. We should not flinch from saying it: in this dispute, Greece was the aggressor.

“Macedonian” is the primary designation of ethnic identity for the Macedonians.

To put it another way, the only Macedonians that in fact did not need a "composite name" are the citizens of the Republic of (North) Macedonia. The reason should be obvious: they are the only Macedonians for whom "Macedonian" is the primary designation of ethnic identity. Every other Macedonian around is something else first – Greek, Serb, Bulgarian and so on. But no such person, if asked where they are from on a trip abroad, would reply that they are from Macedonia instead of Greece, Serbia or Bulgaria. De facto, all Macedonians in neighbouring countries already have “composite names”.

NATO did not invent the Macedonians this time around.

Geopolitical expediency has forced a people to bargain with the only name history has left them. We should perhaps try to reflect on this, before dismissing them once again – this time as mere instruments of NATO policy.

I still find it hard to believe that these words came out of an ethnic Greek. I'm more inclined to believe that perhaps this journalist is a member of the Macedonian minority in Greece. That would make more sense.

[Niko777]

About the author:

Augustine Zenakos is an independent journalist based in Athens. Formerly, he was chief editor of Unfollow magazine. In the past, he was a feature writer and columnist for To Vima newspaper, co-publisher of a. the athens contemporary art review, and co-director of the Athens Biennale.

Twitter account: https://twitter.com/auzenakos

I still find it hard to believe that these words came out of an ethnic Greek. I'm more inclined to believe that perhaps this journalist is a member of the Macedonian minority in Greece. That would make more sense.

There is no indication at all that he's Macedonian

[Karposh]

There is no indication at all that he's Macedonian

Togash, Gospod zdravje da mu daj i mu chestitam za iskrenosta shto ja pokazha.

[Bill77]

An elderly SDSM fan attending the SDSM organized street party in honour of NATO

In a nutshell....."I always supported this party, I was for Tito and I still support them"

https://twitter.com/Gospodinovski/status/1018258865681559557

The Macedonian Left

[Gocka]

We don't call them Comunjari for nothing. I know many older people who fit into that same mould perfectly.

An elderly SDSM fan attending the SDSM organized street party in honour of NATO

In a nutshell....."I always supported this party, I was for Tito and I still support them"

https://twitter.com/Gospodinovski/status/1018258865681559557

The Macedonian Left

Why would anyone celebrate NATO membership. Macedonians want economic opportunity, in what way does NATO achieve that? If anything it could be an economic drain, being forced to spend more money on defense and buy useless military hardware. In every other sense Macedonia already participates as a NATO member fighting other people's wars.

[Risto the Great]

The truth about the Prespa deal, what are it's implications and why it's unjust

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/macedonian/en/audiotrack/forum-sydney-truth-about-prespa-deal-what-are-its-implications-and-why-it-unjust

Audio from Igor Avramovski Aleksandrov, President of the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia on the link.

The agreement is a breach of internationally codified human rights and freedoms and any political legitimacy, even through a referendum, would be forced, oppressive and invalid, said the participants in the debate

Well .... "forced, oppressive and invalid" describes the Ventilator and related matters. Didn't seem to make much difference over the last 20 years.

Interesting point from this analysis by Australian Macedonian legal minds is the significance of the the agreement in relation to the Macedonian minorities outside of Macedonia. Where we in the diaspora and neighbouring countries (particular Egejci and Pirinsi) have been crying for support from the republic as Macedonians. It will soon be illegal for the SeveredFyromian state to NOT report actions of minorities in neighbouring countries to Greece under article 3:

4. The Parties commit not to undertake, instigate, support and/or tolerate any actions or activities of a non-friendly character directed against the other Party. Neither Party shall allow its territory to be used against the other Party by any third country, Organization, group or individual carrying out or attempting to carry out subversive, secessionist actions, or actions or activities which threaten in any manner the peace, stability or security of the other Party. Each Party shall communicate without delay to the other Party any information in its possession regarding any such actions or intentions.

Technically, the MTO would often be in a position whereby, in its attempts to promote or encourage sovereignty of the Macedonian nation, it would be the Republic of the SeveredFyromian state's obligation to report us to Greece.

Something like the billboards AMHRC placed in Macedonia for example.

In fact NMakedonia would become the first point of contact enemy of Macedonians around the world.

How do you like them peaches NMakedonci?

Let that sink in. I have always regarded FYROM and willing Fyromians as enemies of Macedonia and Macedonians. But this is on a whole new level.

[FoxTale]

Interesting point from this analysis by Australian Macedonian legal minds is the significance of the the agreement in relation to the Macedonian minorities outside of Macedonia. Where we in the diaspora and neighbouring countries (particular Egejci and Pirinsi) have been crying for support from the republic as Macedonians. It will soon be illegal for the SeveredFyromian state to NOT report actions of minorities in neighbouring countries to Greece under article 3:

Does this only apply to the Macedonians, or do the Greeks have to do this with their own people too?

[Risto the Great]

Does this only apply to the Macedonians, or do the Greeks have to do this with their own people too?

Applies to the Greeks also. However, they have never honoured their end of any deals and Macedonia has notwithstanding how utterly stupid any of the agreements are.

Macedonia has far more to lose in any case as they actually DO have minorities in neighbouring countries.

[Big Bad Sven]

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/...-why-it-unjust


Audio from Igor Avramovski Aleksandrov, President of the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia on the link.



Well .... "forced, oppressive and invalid" describes the Ventilator and related matters. Didn't seem to make much difference over the last 20 years.

Interesting point from this analysis by Australian Macedonian legal minds is the significance of the the agreement in relation to the Macedonian minorities outside of Macedonia. Where we in the diaspora and neighbouring countries (particular Egejci and Pirinsi) have been crying for support from the republic as Macedonians. It will soon be illegal for the SeveredFyromian state to NOT report actions of minorities in neighbouring countries to Greece under article 3:



Technically, the MTO would often be in a position whereby, in its attempts to promote or encourage sovereignty of the Macedonian nation, it would be the Republic of the SeveredFyromian state's obligation to report us to Greece.

Something like the billboards AMHRC placed in Macedonia for example.

In fact NMakedonia would become the first point of contact enemy of Macedonians around the world.

How do you like them peaches NMakedonci?

Let that sink in. I have always regarded FYROM and willing Fyromians as enemies of Macedonia and Macedonians. But this is on a whole new level.

With a simple stroke of a pen Zoran Zaev has wiped out all of the macedonians in Greece, bulgaria and albania. The neighbouring countries have spent 100's of years trying to achive this and the globalist cuck Zaev did this ina few seconds.

Really ironic when you think about it

[Big Bad Sven]

We don't call them Comunjari for nothing. I know many older people who fit into that same mould perfectly.



Why would anyone celebrate NATO membership. Macedonians want economic opportunity, in what way does NATO achieve that? If anything it could be an economic drain, being forced to spend more money on defense and buy useless military hardware. In every other sense Macedonia already participates as a NATO member fighting other people's wars.

Macedonian boomers are possibly the worst boomes in the world. Easily the most pro yugoslav and pro tito people out of former yugoslvia. So quick and eager to throw away everything macedonian and be proud to be a nameless and cultureless souther slav.

[Niko777]

Greek-Russian Businessman and owner of PAOK Ivan Savvidi Paid 300,000 Euros to Opponents of the name change in Macedonia

A Russian billionaire living in Greece has given hundreds of thousands of euros to Macedonian opponents of the country’s proposed name change. The recipients include football hooligans who have rioted in the capital.

Read the rest of the article here: https://www.occrp.org/en/28-ccwatch/...t-in-macedonia

Wikipedia article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Savvidis

[Risto the Great]

It would be sad to learn the only protesters against the name agreement were paid. But nothing would shock me anymore about that country.

[Pelagonija]

What a load of crap.

Of course they will try smear stifle anyone opposing their policies and views.

We’ve been hearing the same thing in the USA for the two years, Russia this, Russia that. You don’t hear anything about the banksters.

Same thing in fyrom, now zeav accusing komiti of Russian financing.

https://tv21.tv/mk/?p=18439

A bit of logic and some critical thinking would do the world some wonders.



.

[Gocka]

I would go a step further and say Macedonians boomers might be the most pro communist people left on earth. In Macedonia anyone over 55 is a Yugo nostalgic.

Macedonian boomers are possibly the worst boomes in the world. Easily the most pro yugoslav and pro tito people out of former yugoslvia. So quick and eager to throw away everything macedonian and be proud to be a nameless and cultureless souther slav.

There hasn't been a grass roots peoples protest in Macedonia, ever as far as I know. Maybe in the early 90's. Everything in at least the last 15 years is either party organized or paid for.

It would be sad to learn the only protesters against the name agreement were paid. But nothing would shock me anymore about that country.