Australian position on Macedonia

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  • Daskalot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4345

    #16
    Australia's official stance on the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: Rebuttal!



    Australia's official stance on the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM): Rebuttal
    Gandeto
    September 19, 2009
    Even though I prefer to open my article with a suitable phrase—to grab your immediate attention—this time, I will begin my story with an impromptu question:

    If you ever find yourself in a time squeeze and are not sure how to proceed or how to react to a given situation, would you:

    (a) Do what seems natural to you.

    (b) Do what the majority of the people before you have done already.

    (c) Take the advice of a fellow who has vested interest in the outcome or

    (d) Consult as many scholars/experts on the field as possible before you make your decision.

    Obviously, your first initial approach would be to read and understand the question being asked. Second, you would read and analyze the choices given. Next, you would eliminate some of the choices and finally, you would focus on one that, in your opinion, makes the most sense regarding the essence of the question being asked.

    Considering the choices given:

    Choice (a): Most likely you would not select choice "a" because the question does not allude to things being done instinctively, or on the spur of a moment without some consideration.

    Choice (c): Chances are that you would stay away from this one because you may get suspicious and may question this fellow´s hidden agenda or motives.

    Choice (d): You would decline selecting choice "d" on the strength of the "time squeeze" constraint emphasized within the question itself, thus, the urgency of the decision to be made will preclude its selection. Here, the contrast is obvious; you do not have the luxury of time to indulge yourself in a time consuming research to consult all the experts in the field.

    Therefore, your choice most likely would be "b"; do what the majority of people have done already.

    In the article "Australia's official stance on the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)" from September 13, sent to the American Chronicle by the so-called Australian Macedonian Advisory Council and written by certain Paul Kiritsis, their Executive Director, we find the following advice given to the Australian community in advance of the Republic of Macedonia´s Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski´s visit to Australia scheduled for late October.

    He is concerned that you, the citizens of Australia, could "erroneously" call the Republic of Macedonia by its constitutional name and not refer to her by the awkward and insulting acronym—imposed by Greece—Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

    Since Mr. Kiritsis feels that:

    "Many Australians have been misled by this continuous propaganda, their ignorance of history, unwillingness to take initiative and educate themselves, lack of conscientiousness and to an extent, anomalous inertness on the part of the Greeks, who remained calm and assured the past few decades because they supposed a culture based on erroneous beliefs could not possibly evade extinction. As a result, a climate conducive to dangerous activities has proliferated surreptitiously in both in Australia and abroad",

    he would like to prepare you and offer a lesson in history.

    Since he finds you ignorant of history, unwilling to take initiative and educate yourselves and since you lack consciousness, he, Kiritsis takes it upon himself to educate, enlighten and advise you how to think and how to act when the Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski from the Republic of Macedonia visits Australia in October.

    In his letter of advice to you, the usual Greek propaganda lines are being repeated—ad nauseum—again. He is cautioning you not to offend the Greeks living in Australia by referring to Republic of Macedonia according to her constitutional name. In other words, you need not do what majority of the world´s countries have done already; pay no heed to 126 countries of the world among which are: USA, Canada, Britain, China, India, Russia, Brazil and the rest, but rather listen to these Greeks who, with their incessant peevish complains, have become the laughing stock of Europe.

    In their overzealousness to appropriate the inheritance of the Ancient Macedonians and portray them as "Greeks", modern Greeks have demonstrated utter contempt not only for your intelligence and wisdom but also for the leading scholars of the world past and present. They have betrayed the writings of their "own" nineteenth century historians who saw the ancient Macedonians not as brethren but as conquerors of Greece (Roudometof 2000). They have unscrupulously usurped the reporting of the ancient Greek biographers themselves whose description of Greece never included the kingdom of Macedon.

    To them the boundaries of Greece extended from the Ambracian Gulf in the south to the river Peneus in the north (Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, Dionysius). Are they also suggesting that Isocrates, in his letter to King Philip of Macedon, lied when he told Philip that his "ancestors left Greece entirely and found their kingdom among the people of non-kindred race"?

    Moreover, weren´t the ancient Greeks pleading with the Romans to force King Philip V to evacuate from Greece? (Pol. 16 and 18; Diod. 28. 5ff.; Livy 31-33; Plut. Flamininus). And when Rome defeated the Macedonians didn´t they proclaim the liberation of all the Greek cities? (Polybius, xviii, 46,5).

    Numerous epitaphs do testify and serve as a somber reminder that Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks were two distinct and quite antagonistic neighbors who were embroiled in constant squabbles and disputes ranging from territorial disagreements to form and style of government. Consider the following epitaph for the ancient Greek hero Demosthenes:

    "O, Demosthenes, if your strength was equal to your wisdom, Greece would have never been enslaved by the Macedonian Ares."

    Or perhaps you prefer these few preserved lines that unambiguously testify to the veracity of our claim that ancient Greeks never regarded the ancient Macedonians as brethren:

    "With the fallen Hellenes at Chaeronea was buried the freedom of Greece."

    No amount of propaganda can erase the meaning of these lines; Greeks at Chaeronea were fighting the Macedonians "to safeguard the liberty of Hellas". No amount of half-truths can suffice and overcome these incontrovertible facts; Ancient Macedonians conquered the ancient Greeks and kept them under the Macedonian yoke for centuries. Garrisons, which are sure sign of servitude, are not stationed in your own country; "As long as Chalcis, Corinth and Demitrius, the fetters of Greece, are garrisoned by the Macedonians, there will be no freedom for the Greeks."


    In lieu of these and plethora of other irrefutable facts how do you justify your claim that Macedonia was always Greek? What idiosyncratic sinister drives possessed your soul to assume that lies can be passed over as truth? Or do you suppose, with your twisted logic, that others are ignorant, uneducated and without conscience (I forgot that you do) and that you, perched on your broken Greek marble, can dispose the truth as you see fit?

    (Do you ever consider that your pervasive and barbaric attacks on our Macedonian identity will have lasting and negative, detrimental consequences for generations to come and that your bigoted, racist attitude towards our ethnicity has planted seeds of mistrust, prejudice and hate to last another five hundred years? When will you grow up? When will you realize and come to your senses that we, the ethnic Macedonians want nothing from you that does not belong to us. Is asking for permission to visit the graveyards of our beloved departed grandparents too much? Is asking to be allowed to freely use our Macedonian language at home and in schools too hard to comprehend? And when we declare that we are ethnic Macedonians, is it really up to you to decide what we can or cannot call ourselves?).

    I am profoundly puzzled as to how you Greeks present these facts to your students? Will you ever reconcile and tell the truth for once? Aren´t you the only country in the world that celebrates its conqueror?

    Be reminded that slogans history do not make. Be reminded that historical truth presented to serve domestic market will not find a fertile ground abroad. You can twist the truth, slip and slide around the facts, lie to your own people and demonize your neighbors but at the end you will suffer the inevitable defeat; you will drown into your own manipulative lies.

    Mr. Kiritsis who thinks that you are ignorant of history continues:

    "At this time, I will not engage you with a lengthy dissertation on historical truth. Any historian or scholar involved in serious critical inquiry will honestly disclose that the history of Macedonia (the geographical region) is an integral part of Greek history and that its actors were the Macedonian Greeks, from before Alexander the Great to the Greeks of the Byzantine Empire and the contemporary ones (http://macedonia-evidence.org/).

    Those who can, indeed, do engage in a lengthy dissertation of historical truth—they provide evidence to back up their claims. Those who cannot, refer you to websites.

    Contrary to what Mr. Kiritsis alludes in the passage above that ancient Macedonia is an integral part of Greece, the evidence points to the opposite direction and cannot support such an elusive act. Greece occupied historic Macedonia for the first time in 1913 with the Balkan Wars. Never before that date did Greece ever claim Macedonia as part of Greece. Fact is that Greece maintained a consular office in Salonica prior to 1913.

    Countries do not open a consular office in their own cities; do they? Similarly, one is hard pressed to find evidence for the newly created designation "Macedonian Greeks" before 1986. Who were these people who kept silent over their dual ethnicity? Why were they hiding? Do Australians know or remember of any such designation prior to 1986? Can these Greeks provide a shred of evidence for this ethnic description? Isn´t it a grotesque lie?

    Fact is that Greece in her drive to exterminate the ethnic Macedonians has lost her political compass, is perilously close to losing her credibility and is dangerously manipulating the truth to her own populace. It is true that with her protracted campaign against the Republic of Macedonia, she is winning some minor skirmishes here and there, but truth is also, that you do not stop the bleeding of a severed aorta with a Band-Aid application.

    Instead of reading and listening to your own Australian son, professor A. B. Bosworth, who says that the Greeks with Alexander in Asia were known for their absence from any major battle, the Greek Advisory Council in Australia wants to educate you and give you a "proper" guidance of protocol—the Greek style. Their laughable attempt to appropriate the ancient Macedonian Kingdom and steal the Macedonian legacy is an attempt to disrespect, obfuscate and denigrate world Academic Institutions.

    The ancient kingdom of Macedon has nothing to do with Greeks. Alexander and

    his father Philip looked down upon these Greeks with utter contempt. Ancient Greeks have nothing in common with this mongrel race of residuals that inhabit Greece today.

    Author after author, being disenchanted with modern Greeks´ behavior and

    attitude, have depicted them as an agglomeration of Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs and Turks. Their violations of human rights of the ethnic Macedonians living in Greece and their continuous persecution and torment of them is a tantamount to thumbing their nose at the United Nations´ universally established and accepted human rights codes of conduct and principles. In their path to procure documents, secure evidence or manufacture new one to support their inadmissible claims, these people will resort to corruption, deceit and willful endangerment of the well-being of anyone who dares to challenge their stands.

    The world is simply tired of their fake concern about the name. It is amply transparent that their crocodile tears about the name are just a front to blur and deflect the real attention from the gist of their crime; the continuous denial of existence of ethnic Macedonians living in Greece whose human rights are being daily violated and whose existence as people is being threatened. That is the real issue with Greece today. These ethnic Macedonians are the real thorn in Greece´s behind because they expose and reveal to the world that democracy in Greece is a total farce. The inhumane treatment of the Macedonian minority in Greece is slowly but gradually emerging as a colossal problem for them that must be addressed sooner than later.

    I know and strongly believe that Australians are quite able to separate the truth from fiction and act accordingly. I also know and wholeheartedly believe that Australia will soon join the majority of the countries of the world and refer to the Republic of Macedonia by its chosen constitutional name.

    Until next time….
    Thank you Gandeto for investing your time to writes this fine article!
    Macedonian Truth Organisation

    Comment

    • Prolet
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 5241

      #17
      Pensions Australia

      I've just heard that Australia is going to lift the age for pensioners to 69 years old meaning for those Macedonians from Australia who want to live in Macedonia with their Pension will have to be 69 years old this is as of October 10, 2009

      The other condition is that the citizens in Macedonia must not own any property or have a property in their name,shares or other means of income in order to be entitled a pension from Australia into Macedonia.

      Its going to be harder and harder to live in Macedonia with an Australian Pension, Od Drzavna Cheshma Voda Ne se Pije.

      Can anybody confirm this information or is there something im missing?? No Macedonian from Australia is going to come to Macedonia and not even own an flat or a house especially in the Villages, what would be the point of retirement in Macedonia to begin with.
      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

      Comment

      • VMRO
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1462

        #18
        put the property on your kids names...
        Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

        Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

        Comment

        • Prolet
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 5241

          #19
          Thats not the only thing, You cant have two pensions either, only a Macedonian or an Australian one.

          If you are entitled for a Macedonian Pension then you cant take it, i think there is not alot of point in signing this document when Gruevski comes to Australia.

          I have a family friend who gets two pensions one from Germany the other from Macedonia. If you've worked in various countries and have payed tax then you are entitled to a pension it seems every country in the world apart from Australia can understand that.
          МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #20
            Prolet, I believe the raising of the pension age will be a "phase-in" type process and did not think it was as immediate as you suggest.

            Many people in Australia receive pensions from Australia and another country. As an example, the Italian pension typically pays peanuts and the Australian pension is paid in addition to it. I am not sure why you are getting so animated about this. If you have assets anywhere, they should be performing and making money for you so that you rely less on the pension. Macedonia might still have a communist mentality in that everybody deserves a pension, but this certainly is not the case in Australia.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Prolet
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 5241

              #21
              The Italian Pension pays peanuts if the person has 2 years working experience as a tax payer, if he was worked for 20+ years then he is looking at a much bigger cut. The Macedonian Pension system is the same as anywhere else in Europe, you get a pension at 64 years of age. The problem with Australia is that it doesnt have a pension it has Social Security, because even if you dont work a day in your life you are still entitled to a pension but thats not the point.

              The fact that as an Australian Tax Payer you should be able to receive a pension regardless of weather you are rich or poor, if you have payed taxes for decades you must be entitled to a pension.

              There are cases where people get multiple pensions, if they've lived and worked in other countries citizens are entitled to a Pension, in Australia that wont be possible they will have to choose which pension they want which is a joke. My Uncle for example worked in a Slovenian Company whos head quarters were in Ljubljana for 25 years once YU broke up the firm closed its outlets in Macedonia and all of YU and only kept their offices in Slovenia. When he goes into retirement he is entitled to a full pension from Slovenia aswell as a full pension from Macedonia.

              Im not exactly sure about the age limit in Australia being lifted to 69, however it is disappointing how our pensioners will be forced to sign off their properties to somebody else aswell as choosing their pension when infact they are eligible to take both of them like it is anywhere else in Europe.
              МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

              Comment

              • The LION will ROAR
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3231

                #22
                Changing the name (ownership) of a house say to your kids...
                It takes 5 years after till you are entitled to the pension..
                The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

                Comment

                • Dzog
                  Junior Member
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 37

                  #23
                  The point of pensions should be to guard against poverty for elderly people, not the repayment of tax. In any case, most of the pension systems around the world require contributions from the taxpayer from their income. Australia has the same in the compulsory Superannuation contributions (although this is not a pension, per se) AND a means tested Government pension. In my opinion, if you own five houses when you're over 65 then you don't need the pension.
                  Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

                  Comment

                  • Prolet
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 5241

                    #24
                    Dzog, Its not about what you think is enough for somebody weather its 5 houses 10 houses or whatever. Its about what you are entitled and what you have worked for, in Macedonia if you have worked for 30 years and payed taxes even if you have 10 houses and 5 buildings under your name you are still entitled to a pension not because somebody believes you deserve it or not but because its yours.

                    The Australian Government does all it can so it doesnt have to pay you what you are entitled to whats yours, you have to be on the street in order to live on a pension. When you fill in a tax return, on the form it asks you if you own any properties overseas why is that any of their business?? They can only tax you on what you have in Australia, if you own something else in another country you pay tax for it there. The Australian Government has no jurisdiction what happens outside its borders.
                    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                      The Australian Government does all it can so it doesnt have to pay you what you are entitled to whats yours, you have to be on the street in order to live on a pension. When you fill in a tax return, on the form it asks you if you own any properties overseas why is that any of their business?? They can only tax you on what you have in Australia, if you own something else in another country you pay tax for it there. The Australian Government has no jurisdiction what happens outside its borders.
                      I would hope the Australian Government only pays you what it has to. As an Australian resident for taxation purposes you will pay capital gains taxes on assets held anywhere in the world. Hence the question as to whether you own any assets that exceed AUD $50,000 in value. If you pay tax on the sale of that asset in the country of sale, the tax paid is a credit on the tax you will pay in Australia. Quite logical ... and ... I would rather live in this infrastructure than that of many other countries, Macedonia included.

                      I am not sure where this handout mentality comes from. It is wrong and killing many countries. I pay a lot of tax, I certainly do not feel that I should be owed a pension upon my retirement.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #26
                        Originally posted by The LION will ROAR View Post
                        Changing the name (ownership) of a house say to your kids...
                        It takes 5 years after till you are entitled to the pension..
                        Kids get divorced, percentage of property goes to the ex .... parents still think it is theirs ... and the games begin ... or end.
                        OR
                        Kids can't get government benefits when they need them because they "own" too many assets.
                        SO
                        What are people willing to give up to earn a $10,000 pension??
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Rogi
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2343

                          #27
                          Risto, many people form Trusts, etc and multi-level complex structures to protect from the things listed above.

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                            Risto, many people form Trusts, etc and multi-level complex structures to protect from the things listed above.
                            I know, I do them. But if you think that keeps family courts happy, then you might be surprised to learn otherwise.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • Dzog
                              Junior Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 37

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                              Dzog, Its not about what you think is enough for somebody weather its 5 houses 10 houses or whatever. Its about what you are entitled and what you have worked for, in Macedonia if you have worked for 30 years and payed taxes even if you have 10 houses and 5 buildings under your name you are still entitled to a pension not because somebody believes you deserve it or not but because its yours.

                              The Australian Government does all it can so it doesnt have to pay you what you are entitled to whats yours, you have to be on the street in order to live on a pension. When you fill in a tax return, on the form it asks you if you own any properties overseas why is that any of their business?? They can only tax you on what you have in Australia, if you own something else in another country you pay tax for it there. The Australian Government has no jurisdiction what happens outside its borders.

                              I doubt Macedonia pays pensions out of the tax an individual pays. It is most likely out of contributions that are made out of their income.

                              At the end of the day, you don't pay tax to have it paid back to you when you retire. If you are unhappy with Australia's tax and social welfare system, then I'd suggest you leave the country rather than complain about it, because you'll always be wrong.
                              Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

                              Comment

                              • Prolet
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 5241

                                #30
                                Dzog, Im not complaining i just dont agree with it. The whole point of Gruevski going to Australia is to sign the Pension agreement at least we know that this is certainly going to happen since that has been confirmed however what will Macedonians from Australia gain from this if they were to take their pensions and live in Macedonia??

                                They will have to show the Government in Australia that they have no other income or if they do it has to be minimal aswell as not own any property. Why would a Macedonian Pensioner from Australia want to come to Macedonia and not be an owner of a property?? Being forced to signed off to their children and there are people who dont have children either way like Risto stated there are consequences to doing this, they could get divorced,get involved with bitter disputes with each other lets say brother or sister because there is nothing worse then having inheritance disputes it will destroy families.

                                Risto, So if your grand father left you a house in Macedonia and its passed on to your father then its passed on to you, do you then have to pay tax on it in Australia even though it has nothing to do with Australia??

                                I know, I do them. But if you think that keeps family courts happy, then you might be surprised to learn otherwise.
                                Risto, What can family courts do if you own a trust?? They cant sue the trust.
                                МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                                Comment

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