The Official Albanian Agenda in Macedonia

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  • DraganOfStip
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 1253

    #16
    Originally posted by Stevce View Post
    Albanian parties have made it clear that they do not want equal rights but to take over the country. If they want a greater Albania go to Albania and make it a great country. If you want to live in Macedonia, learn Macedonia as your first language, be proud of the flag and anthem, and by all means learn Albanian as a second language at school or at home and be proud of your background but do no enforce it on everyone else.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
    I wouldn't be too sure of that, if Grujo fails to form a new government and passes the buck to Zajko (who seems like he will sell his own mother to obtain power), Grujo (not to mention his executive team) is basically going to gaol, I think that's pretty much guaranteed, which also puts him in a pretty desperate situation.

    I think this all lies with what he can work out with Ahmeti, it looks like he is the true "king maker" in this situation. Both DUI and DPNE stand to loose face with their constituents if they agree to form a coalition again, Ahmeti would face a pretty big backlash if he concedes any ground on the united Albanian approach, I also have no doubt Grujo would have some dirt on him. It comes down to whether Ahmeti chooses to play ball and loose face with DPNE, or win back favour by rejecting any compromises and securing a joint coalition with SDS and BESA. The smart move (from an Albanian point of view) by Ahmeti would be to go the SDS route, who as I said, stand to loose ground if they go to elections again so most likely will just agree to whatever demands the Albanians have (probably just write it off that most are part of the OFA anyway, which I assume is the same route Grujo would take), and face some public backlash for a day or two before Macedonians shrug their shoulders and go back to business as usual. If Grujo subsequently ends up spilling some dirt on Ahmeti as a result, I'm sure SDS will just get the SJO to exonerate him of any charges (which no doubt Ahmeti would want assurances from before opting the SDS route). Again, excluding Ahmeti's personal circumstances, from an Albanian persepective, the SDS route would seem more favourable for DUI.

    If DUI and DPNE form a new government, then I think that pretty much guarantees Grujo has something considerably unforgiving on Ahmeti. Likewise if Grujo accepts all of the Albanian demands, then clearly this exposes him for what he really is, that his so called "nationalistic" rhetoric has just been a façade all along and really he is simply afraid to go to gaol and will do anything to remain in power and try and weather out the storm.

    Just my current thoughts.
    Still I think that neither Grujo nor Zajko are that stupid to accept the language demand.
    Accepting some of the other demands could somehow pass with the Macedonians (with the help of the party propaganda machinery of course), but accepting Albanian as the second official language on the entire territory of the country would be an act of high treason and the Macedonian people would never go over such treachery.
    IMO the entire goal of the Albanian platform is to force another elections.
    They know both Macedonian blocks wouldn't accept it and in such case no one can form a majority which inevitably leads to new elections.
    We can only wait and see what happens.
    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
    ― George Orwell

    Comment

    • Tomche Makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2011
      • 1123

      #17
      Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
      Couldn't agree more.


      Still I think that neither Grujo nor Zajko are that stupid to accept the language demand.
      Accepting some of the other demands could somehow pass with the Macedonians (with the help of the party propaganda machinery of course), but accepting Albanian as the second official language on the entire territory of the country would be an act of high treason and the Macedonian people would never go over such treachery.
      IMO the entire goal of the Albanian platform is to force another elections.
      They know both Macedonian blocks wouldn't accept it and in such case no one can form a majority which inevitably leads to new elections.
      We can only wait and see what happens.
      When your dealing with politicians who always place their own self interests in front of the nations, anything is possible

      I'm not sure what benefit new elections will serve the Albanian parties cause (other than winning back some votes from SDS) surely the current situation they find themselves in could be seen as the most opportunistic in respect of their nationalistic movement, allowing either SDS of DPNE obtain a greater majority will only risk less weight to be placed on their demands at the negotiating table, right now they seem to have both Zajko and Grujo by the balls with this untied approach, I don't see it getting any better than that for them to want to go back to the polls.

      I would have to say I will be pretty surprised (if not slightly impressed) if both DPNE and SDS give the Albanians the cold shoulder in this instance, as it would indicate that Zajko would be willing to risk loosing his chance to be PM, and Grujo would be willing to risk going to gaol, then give into Albanian national aggression. Oddly, this would inadvertently place both SDS and DPNE on a untied front against an Albanian United front, where things could certainly have the possibility of getting interesting. Of course I'm sure Grujo would welcome such a scenario, anything to steer focus away from the SJO... But again, I find this a rather unlikely scenario

      Like you said, we can only wait and see
      Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 01-13-2017, 08:44 AM.
      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

      Comment

      • vicsinad
        Senior Member
        • May 2011
        • 2337

        #18
        As expected...

        SKOPJE, Macedonia – Macedonia's political crisis has deepened, with the dominant conservatives rejecting a key potential coalition partner's conditions to help form a government after last month's elections.

        The VMRO-DPMNE party said Friday that it won't negotiate the demands by its former coalition partner, the ethnic Albanian minority's DUI party.

        Former prime minister Nikola Gruevski's conservatives won the Dec. 11 national elections, but are 10 seats short of a parliamentary majority.

        DUI controls 10 seats, but has set two conditions to govern with Gruevski: That Albanian be designated an official language — along with Macedonian — all over the country, rather than in minority areas, and that Gruevski allows a special prosecution service to continue the investigation of a wiretapping scandal that plunged the country into a deep political crisis two years ago.

        Macedonia's political crisis has deepened, with the dominant conservatives rejecting a key potential coalition partner's conditions to help form a government after last month's elections.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #19
          I thought Thailand was a joke when the military took over running the country. Now I think this could have been a great alternative were it not for the ethnic Albanian influence there nowadays.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #20
            Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
            ....this would inadvertently place both SDS and DPNE on a untied front against an Albanian United front, where things could certainly have the possibility of getting interesting.
            Interesting indeed, but it could pave the way towards breaking this hold that ethnic Albanian parties have over Macedonia. There are huge issues with the Macedonian parties, but if there was ever a time for them to form a common front for the betterment of Macedonia and all of its people (at least in relation to this threat posed by ethnic Albanian politicians), it is now.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Tomche Makedonche
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2011
              • 1123

              #21
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Interesting indeed, but it could pave the way towards breaking this hold that ethnic Albanian parties have over Macedonia. There are huge issues with the Macedonian parties, but if there was ever a time for them to form a common front for the betterment of Macedonia and all of its people (at least in relation to this threat posed by ethnic Albanian politicians), it is now.
              Well this is the hope we all share, but history tends to remind us it's just a fools hope. The situation can go a number of ways, SDS and DPNE have always been more obsessed with slitting each other's throats in order to hold the keys to the vault then anything else, but I guess we'll see soon enough
              Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 01-15-2017, 06:50 PM.
              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                #22
                I agree that it is a fools hope. If Macedonians ever had that sense of unity then I think our entire human history would have turned out a lot more differently than it has.

                Some self serving kopile will call for common ground with the Albanians and then brag about how a crisis was averted in exchange for more embarrassment.

                Comment

                • DraganOfStip
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 1253

                  #23
                  Former Slovakian minister of external affairs Edward Kukan (current head of the European People's Party in European Parliament's Committee for External Affairs) says the platform of the Albanian parties in Macedonia is "completely unacceptable":
                  The activities of the Albanian prime minister after the elections in Macedonia, for me are totally unacceptable, totally unacceptable! To invite the Albanian political parties from Macedonia to discuss their platform and what to do when they return to their country, is really too much. I'm surprised nobody mentioned publicly, but I know it caused a lot of criticism, a lot of criticism. That is not how things are done
                  ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                  ― George Orwell

                  Comment

                  • Opinci
                    Junior Member
                    • Feb 2017
                    • 4

                    #24
                    Македонскиот претседател му соопштил на Хан дека како и досега, така и во иднина, ќе постапува во рамки на Уставот и во интерес на државата и на граѓаните на Република Македонија. Тој исто така истакнал дека очекува од новата влада да има два клучни приоритети, односно заштита на државните интереси на Република Македонија, што подразбира зачувување и зацврстување на унитарниот карактер на државата, и системска реформа по кризата во која ќе бидат опфатени субјектите на системот за национална безбедност на државата.


                    I am not sure of the President’s official, formal, constitutional powers (whether they are purely ceremonial or whether they confer upon him actual substantive power), but it strikes me that Ivanov is saying that should Zaev forge a coalition with the Albanians, which is not in the interest of the Macedonian ethnicity, then Ivanov will reject such a deal on the basis that the unique ethnic character of Macedonia will be coming under attack through dilution and the safety of the country will endangered. The sought dual language change, change of name (in specific reference to the Greek problem), the change of the national symbols, change of national anthem, the change of the constitution. LOL there’s a call for a wholesale transplant of the heritage.
                    What is interesting here is that I am not sure who officially confirms the government. Zaev wants the so called ‘mandate’ given to him from Ivanov, which Ivanov claims will be given to anyone who manages to gather 61 signatures. So Zaev is busily collecting signatures from the Albanians.
                    I’ve heard that Ahmeti will only give his party’s 10 (minister’s) signatures if Zaev publicly agrees to the so called ‘Albanian platform’ (raft of demands). I think this is a minor point as I bet they’ll manage to aggregate 61 signatures and then begin what are formal negotiations for the formation of government. What confuses me is why they cannot just engage in inter-party discussions and settle an agreement and then walk to the President to state that they have an agreement for a coalition and that they have more than 61 ministers (pratenici), and then ask of Ivanov for this mandate to govern.

                    Does Ivanov need to formally swear in the government and render it legal and official- and can he reject that formal process on grounds of security? i.e. Zaev promises the house to the Albanians and all but sells the country to them; Ivanov then demands the content/substance of the contractual agreement between Zaev and the Albanians to see if they are undermining the unique character and security of the country; Zaev either agrees to publicly disclose the agreement or does not agree, arguing that simply collecting greater than 61 signatures is enough to form government, with the details and content of agreements to be worked out at a later stages as part of the very process of governing itself, which will include consulting the people and citizens and possibly referendums to settle certain contentious issues, etc. Ivanov will argue that his duty as President is to keep the country united and this new governing coalition is presenting a threat to the nation, thus he will refuse to formally ratify it and he will then be forced to call for new elections for a more decisive resolution of the political crisis.
                    Could this then go to the constitutional court for resolution as to the actual powers the President has at his disposal?
                    Once Ivanov hands over this so-called ‘mandate’ after 61 signatures are presented to him, does that then mean the Zaev and Albanian parties’ coalition is the formal government of the country, thus sidelining Ivanov? If that is the case, then Ivanov’s public statements make me think that he will not give Zaev and (newly acquired) friends the ‘mandate’ even if they accumulate 61 votes because Ivanov will demand to see the basis on which the collation was formed- the substance of their governing agenda. At this point it could head to the constitutional court for resolution as Zaev and co would claim the President is overstepping the boundary of his presidential powers in demanding more than just a minimum of 61 signatures- demanding to see content of policies, which is not his business- though Ivanov will claim that it is his constitutional duty to keep the country united and to safeguard it from disintegrating as is foreshadowed in a SDSM coalition with Albanians as per their publicly stated comments. i.e. Zaev has stated publicly that adopting a dual-language policy is fine by him, and Albanians demand it; though this would change the character of the country, which is an unacceptable demand to the President, on which basis he will reject offering a mandate to SDSM and the Albanians.

                    What do people think about these issues?

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      #25
                      So I got the official platform off of DUI's website, and put in bold what I thought were some of the alarming aspects:




                      We agree to mutual support for a common political agenda that envisions the achievement of following objectives, during the next, or any other following, government mandate:


                      1. Achievement of full equality, in compliance with the Ohrid Framework Agreement and the Constitution

                      • Strict implementation of the principle of multi-ethnicity in the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia, where the Albanians shall be recognized a nation-building population. Support for any legislation of constitutional initiative that strengthens ethnic equality for the Albanian population.

                      • Achievement of full linguistic equality, use of the Albanian language at all levels of governance and guaranteeing its use as a basic and constitutional right. The Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia shall determine that “the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic script and the Albanian language and its script are official languages in the Republic of Macedonia.”

                      All-inclusive debate on the flag, anthem, and state coat-of-arms of the Republic of Macedonia, so that state symbols reflect societal multi-ethnicity and ethnic equality.

                      • Adoption of a Resolution in the Parliament of the Republic of Macedonia with which to condemn the genocide on the Albanian people in Macedonia during 1912-1952.


                      2. Achievement of economic equality and societal wellbeing, especially through the equitable regional development

                      • Establishment of a new mechanism, in the form of a State Committee on Financing of Municipalities, for a more just decision-making with regard to government grants for municipalities’ benefit.

                      • Creation of a Ministry for Political System and Relations among Communities, as a body responsible for the respect for the rights of the communities and to incentivize economic and societal development in disfavored areas.

                      • Realization of equitable representation in the security bodies, the military, intelligence [agencies], and the judiciary.

                      • Realization of equitable representation at all levels of central governance, as well as public agencies, or public shareholder enterprises.

                      3. Strengthening of the Rule of Law, as a prerequisite for the advancement of the Euro-Atlantic integration process

                      • Implementation of the Reform Plan, in accordance with the Skopje Agreement [Przino], the Priebe Recommendations, the Urgent Reform Priorities of the European Commission, as well as the recommendations from the High-Level Accession Dialogue with the EU.

                      • Support for the impartial work of the Special Prosecution [Office], without ethnic or political prejudice.

                      • Shedding full light on the issues and court cases of “Sopot,” “Brodec,” “Monster,” and “Kumanovo,” though an investigative committee, or an independent international body.

                      4. Creation of a spirit of trust in the function of good interethnic relations, as a crucial element to the political stability of the country

                      Affirmative measures to ensure the financing of Albanian cultural institutions at the local and national level.

                      Creation of a central institution for the advancement of the languages of the communities, which shall ensure the training of translators, editors and lectors.

                      5. Resolution of the name issue, in conformity with European values and the principles of international law

                      • Adoption of a Joint Binding Resolution in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia which shall oblige the Government of Macedonia to commit to actively work toward a solution to the name dispute.

                      Inclusion of Albanians in the working group for direct negotiations with Greece.

                      6. Good Relations With the Neighbors

                      Inclusion of Albanians in the working group for direct negotiations with Bulgaria.

                      Cooperation with Kosovo and Albania for the integrated border management.

                      Opening of new border crossings.

                      7. Quick integration in NATO and the EU

                      • Accomplishing the above points shall unblock Macedonia’s path toward full integration in NATO and open negotiations for membership in the European Union.


                      The accomplishment of these objectives will be supervised through the establishment of a Roundtable of Albanian Parliamentary Parties.

                      The Roundtable of Albanian Parliamentary Parties shall function according to the principle of rotation and shall serve as a platform for the harmonization of political actions and transparent communication with Macedonia’s international partners, while seeking in particular the support of the European Union and international institutions.

                      The Roundtable shall determine the deadlines for the accomplishment of the above-mentioned objectives, in accordance with the laws and the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        #26
                        For everyone that think this so-called "Tirana platform" is something new, here are a couple of exempts from an official paper of the Macedonian Government, available for download on their official webpage:











                        The paper is dated from 2015, so it was made by the government of DPMNE/DUI, and as it can be seen it contains most of what the "Tirana platform" stood for.
                        So, the fake patriots accepted most of the platform 2 years ago, and now they're denouncing it and play the nationalist card to score political points.
                        Link to the story: http://novatv.mk/platoformata-na-dui...adata-vo-2015/

                        P.S.: For anyone interested in downloading the full paper, go to http://www.siofa.gov.mk/, and then to "ДОКУМЕНТИ ЗА ПРЕЗЕМАЊЕ" on the right, and download the first paper titled "Преглед на Охридскиот Договор за социјалната кохезија".
                        Last edited by DraganOfStip; 03-17-2017, 07:53 AM.
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Albo
                          Member
                          • May 2014
                          • 304

                          #27
                          Interesting Debate with Ziadin Sela and Macedonian journalist on Alsat M.. brings up a few issues discussed on here..


                          Comment

                          • mklion
                            Member
                            • Jun 2014
                            • 100

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Albo View Post
                            Interesting Debate with Ziadin Sela and Macedonian journalist on Alsat M.. brings up a few issues discussed on here..


                            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXzb54H9jMM
                            Ziadin Sela seems like a pretty big asshole. Wouldn't even really let the Macedonian speaker counter argue and kept interrupting her.

                            But he definitely got one thing right. He seems pretty worried about the 20% threshold for the Albanian language to be co-official/. I guess he realizes that they are above 20% by only a few percentage points.

                            Comment

                            • Odi Zvezdo
                              Junior Member
                              • Apr 2016
                              • 63

                              #30
                              Originally posted by mklion View Post
                              Ziadin Sela seems like a pretty big asshole. Wouldn't even really let the Macedonian speaker counter argue and kept interrupting her.

                              But he definitely got one thing right. He seems pretty worried about the 20% threshold for the Albanian language to be co-official/. I guess he realizes that they are above 20% by only a few percentage points.
                              He got his right of way today didn't he???

                              Comment

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