Origins of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #61
    I do get the gist. Thanks sf, that solves my nationality vs ethnicity question.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Epirot
      Member
      • Mar 2010
      • 399

      #62
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      Albanians and Macedonians have lived together and fought side by side in many ways through our history Epirot. No need to get too defensive.

      I am interested in Kastriot's national consciousness. What definitive information do you have about him? His mother's name is very Slavic sounding. His Father could have been anything to be honest.

      I must say, many Albanians had quite glorious roles throughout history and deserve their fame. So please don't think this is an exercise in attacking Albanians.
      I think that Marlin Barleti's book does not leave space of doubting his national consciousness. Therefore, Scanderbeg felt himself as Albanian/Epirot and that's was the national consciousness of him. Even he mention our past background: he often refering to Pyrrhus of Epirus. In a letter addressed to an Italian Prince (Orsini) he wrote:
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALLED OURSELVES AS EPIROTES


      A number of scholars have thought his mother as having Slavic origin. Even, we think that her name sounds a bit Slavic, however, it is not sufficient base to make her a Slavic princess. I've read from a historian from Kėrēova (Ilmi Veliu who has digging in Ottoman archives) that Vojasava's father surname was GĖRGUR which a common surname amongst Albanians. 'GUR' in Alb. mean 'Stone'.

      Last edited by Epirot; 03-20-2010, 06:16 AM.
      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #63
        Originally posted by Epirot
        I think that Marlin Barleti's book does not leave space of doubting his national consciousness.
        That is just one source, others state differently.
        Originally posted by Epirot
        A number of scholars have thought his mother as having Slavic origin.
        Most, if not all of his family, had names that are common in Macedonian and/or Serbian. How many Shqipere names were in his family?
        I've read from a historian from Kėrēova (Ilmi Veliu who has digging in Ottoman archives) that Vojasava's father surname was GĖRGUR which a common surname amongst Albanians. 'GUR' in Alb. mean 'Stone'.
        I've read alot of things too. Would you care to provide a source to Veliu's 'digging' of archives, you have me interested.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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        • Epirot
          Member
          • Mar 2010
          • 399

          #64
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          That is just one source, others state differently.

          Most, if not all of his family, had names that are common in Macedonian and/or Serbian. How many Shqipere names were in his family?

          I've read alot of things too. Would you care to provide a source to Veliu's 'digging' of archives, you have me interested.
          But I haven't his book, now! But, I'll promise that I'll find it and translate things that are interesting.

          It was commonly practice in Scanderbeg's time to held Orthodox names.
          IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

          Comment

          • makedonin
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1668

            #65
            Originally posted by Epirot View Post
            It was commonly practice in Scanderbeg's time to held Orthodox names.
            Most of the Orthodox names of the time were "Greek" sounding due to the Constantinopel Patriarchist church! His mothers name Voislava is no such name, to start it simple!

            So Orthodoxy is no explaination of that phenomenon!
            To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #66
              Exactly.

              Epirot, looking forward to your response in relation to Makedonin's statement regarding the names.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Epirot
                Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 399

                #67
                Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                Most of the Orthodox names of the time were "Greek" sounding due to the Constantinopel Patriarchist church! His mothers name Voislava is no such name, to start it simple!

                So Orthodoxy is no explaination of that phenomenon!
                But, other names of Scanderbeg family sounds ''''Greek''' like: Konstandin, Reposh, etc, etc. The names cannot serve as valuable argument to define the nationality of somebody.


                This page is picked up from an earlier Serbian Encyclopedia who admitted Scanderbeg's Albanian nationality.
                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  #68
                  Originally posted by Epirot
                  But, other names of Scanderbeg family sounds ''''Greek''' like: Konstandin, Reposh, etc, etc. The names cannot serve as valuable argument to define the nationality of somebody.
                  Constantine is a Latin name and is used by our people through Christianity. Reposh is Greek? Doesn't sound Greek to me.

                  Names can serve as key identifiers in some instances, in the case of Skenderbeg's family, I think it is very telling. I am yet to see a single Shqipere name in his family, that too, is telling. we could put it down to cultural influence from Macedonians and Serbs over Albanians, but that would still leave many unanswered questions.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • TRAVOLTA
                    Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 504

                    #69
                    Потврда за македонски карактер на династију Кастриот даје итаљијански писац из 16 века (1514) Теодор Спандучи који каже:

                    ".....Георгиа је био краљ Епирски...
                    који је владао са областима Матија и Умнестија (дањашња Албанија) Мајка му се звала Воислава исто тако Македонка, од његов род, черка једном господару из Полог, који преставља део Македоније но који се данас налази под Бугарске...."

                    Немачки научник - историчар Хофман, један од најбољих познавача династије Кастриот у својој Историји каже:

                    "...Не треба да постои спор око порекла на Георгиа Кастриот...
                    Едвај да има неко који има супротно мишљење .
                    И доколико има, то је последица непознавање историских прилика на Балкану у том периоду..."

                    Многа важна сведоштва даје и бискуп Марин Барлет 1493 година, само 26 години по неговата смрт, (Види: Маринус Барлетиус, Хисториа де вита…, стр. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 и натаму) који како његов први биограф саопштава да се Георгиа Кастриот титулирал као:
                    "Краљ Епира и Македоније", даје:
                    "у његовој фамилији се говорило на словенски, исто тако како што су говорили становници по долине реке Радике у Македонији" и да су
                    "његове јединице биле састављене од Трибали, односно од Бугари",
                    како што су тада са овим политичким тендециозним именом називани македонски живаљ.



                    предња страна књиге




                    Translation:

                    According to Nekulche, the part of the peace intermediation between the Emperor and Brinkovjan in Ias was done by (komisa)commissioner Macedonian (Makedona).
                    Vlachian chronologist Radu Grechan points out, that for that purpose Brinkovjan sent Georgi Kastriot to Ias. Russian (istoöniki) also call Georgi Kastriot, in the previous peace proposal by the commission of the Sultan. It is possible that the Turks proposed peace to the Russians without knowledge of Brinkovjan with the sole purpose to test his loyalty. After that we can conclude that he sent Kastriot in Ias under the pseudonym Macedonian (Makedona).

                    цела страна

                    Comment

                    • TRAVOLTA
                      Member
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 504

                      #70


                      The portrait writes; Prince George Kastriot Skanderbeg- Epirus and Albania.

                      The 1st line.
                      Pellaeus,Pyrrhusg, Georgll in pectore, reges.
                      Pellaeus, Pyrrhusg, (regions in Macedonia & Albania) George appointed Ruler/Authority/King.(In these regions)

                      In pectore: appointed/ in the breast or heart/ courage!.
                      Reges: Ruler/Authority/Kings

                      The 2nd line.
                      Thracem ex Epiro quando fugabat, erant.
                      The Thracians from Epirus when; were being to flee.

                      Fugabat: (fuga) running away, to flee… (bat) he, she, it!
                      Quando: when.
                      Erant: they were, used to be, were being.

                      Bottom of the page.
                      1st line:
                      Te, rex Epiri donauit pectore Pyrrhus,
                      You, King of Epirus have been given the courage of Pyrrhus,

                      Donauit: To give one something, as a present.
                      Pyrrhus: Son of Achilles, enemy of the Romans.

                      2nd line:
                      Nomine praterea rex Macedumg fuo;
                      To name after this the king of Macedonia to be;

                      praeterea, besides, further; after this, hereafter.
                      Nomine: to name, given a name.
                      Fuo: (same as, sum: in latin): to be, to exist, be there.

                      3rd & 4th line:
                      Inciderat quanquam tua non in tempora virtus
                      Commoda, fic verpis Thracibus horror eras.

                      He had fallen into although you’re not at the right time but adapted with excellence,
                      The circumcision of your terror has been completed towards the Thracians.

                      Iniderat: (Incid) fall in/on, (erat) he had been, he or she it was, used to be…
                      Quanquam: Although
                      commoda : to make fit, adapt, please, oblige, serve.
                      virtus : manliness, excellence, character, worth,
                      Eras: you had been, you used to be, you were being.
                      Verpis: circumcised man.
                      Horror: same as terror, fright, awe…
                      Tempora: at the right time or temporary..

                      5th & 6th line:
                      A Pyrrho, duce te, capta olim Roma, Georgi,
                      Orbis Alexandrum regem habiturus erat.

                      A philosopher, you influence Rome once with a deception, George,
                      He had the possession of the rings (Macedon!) of King Alexander.

                      Pyrrho: Greek philosopher.
                      Duce: influence, cheat, charm, mislead, draw in.
                      Capta: : to grab, try to get, grab at.
                      Habiturus: to Possess.
                      Orbis: Circles, rings.
                      Olim: once

                      Comment

                      • TRAVOLTA
                        Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 504

                        #71


                        translation:

                        According to Nekulche, the part of the peace intermediation between the Emperor and Brinkovjan in Ias was done by (komisa)commissioner Macedonian (Makedona).
                        Vlachian chronologist Radu Grechan points out, that for that purpose Brinkovjan sent Georgi Kastriot to Ias. Russian (istoöniki) also call Georgi Kastriot, in the previous peace proposal by the commission of the Sultan. It is possible that the Turks proposed peace to the Russians without knowledge of Brinkovjan with the sole purpose to test his loyalty. After that we can conclude that he sent Kastriot in Ias under the pseudonym Macedonian (Makedona).

                        I dont know when Kastriot Skenderbeg lived, I guess this guy can be his son or something, since he did this around 1711, but am not sure either, the book is bit hard to understand.

                        how ever:

                        Question rises up with this:

                        Why would Vlachian and Moldavian Rulers employ Macedonian as commissioner for peace negotiation?

                        Well in those times, Vlachia and Moldavia were in the Hands of the Christian Merchant Class, the Phanariot.
                        According to Francisco R. Adrados in his
                        ‘History of the Greek language’ Page 286:
                        ”The Phanariot from Constantinople were holding important Administration and Political offices and ruled Vlachia and Moldavia in the name of the Sltan.”
                        The same thing is confirmed by C. Hopf in his ‘Language Nationalism in Serbia and Greece’.

                        The same Phanariot revolted against the Sultan rule in year 1821 in Moldavia.
                        It is fanny that those same Phanariots whose communications language was Koine due to their Multiple Ethnical background are today claimed by the Neo Greeks.
                        If that so, than Greeks have more rights to claim Moldavia than Macedonia 
                        By the way, the Phanariot revolt failed, since the Russian support didn’t followed.

                        Back to Kastriot. In the light of the fact that the Multiple Ethnic Merchant Class was ruling Vlachia and Moldavia, it is safe to say that Kastriot chose his pseudonym upon his own Ethnic Feeling, and since he was able to communicate with the Russians, he was Slavophone too, Macedonian in deed.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #72
                          Came across the below on another website, not sure of authenticity, if anybody can confirm that would be good:
                          A newphew of Skanderbeg (the son of one of his sisters) who had turned Moslem was left behind by the retiring Ottomans to safeguard their interests; he ensconced himself at Cape Rodoni north of Durrės. One night he was attacked from the sea by Venetian ships and overland by Skanderbeg. Taken aboard the captain's ship, he was beheaded by his uncle's own hand. According to a report that reached Venice at the beginning of August, Skanderbeg had by then regained power over all his territories. Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time. Babinger, Franz. ISBN 0-691-01078-1, page 261; The Ottomans on the Adriatic.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Nexus
                            Junior Member
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 73

                            #75
                            Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                            A number of scholars have thought his mother as having Slavic origin. Even, we think that her name sounds a bit Slavic, however, it is not sufficient base to make her a Slavic princess. I've read from a historian from Kėrēova (Ilmi Veliu who has digging in Ottoman archives) that Vojasava's father surname was GĖRGUR which a common surname amongst Albanians. 'GUR' in Alb. mean 'Stone'.
                            From Wikipedia :

                            Early sources


                            The first works providing information on Voisava's origins are:

                            Marin Barleti (1450-1513), the Albanian-Venetian historian, wrote in his biography of Skanderbeg (published between 1508-1510), that she was the "daughter of a lord of the Triballians". In another chapter, when talking about the inhabitants of Upper Debar that defended Svetigrad, he calls them "Bulgarians or Triballi". However, the term "Triballians" (Triballoi) appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.

                            Gjon Muzaka (fl. 1510), an Albanian nobleman of the Muzaka family, alleged in his Muzaka Chronicle (published in 1510) that the "Marquis of Tripalda" was maternally related to the Muzaka. Furthermore, in another chapter, he assigns the "Triballi" to the Serbs.

                            Modern sources


                            Johann Georg von Hahn (1811-1869), Austrian expert in Albanian studies, had several thesis on the geneaology of Voisava in Albanesische Studien (1854), including a possible relation with the Branai family or Vrana Konti.

                            Karl Hopf (1832-1873), German historian and expert in Byzantine studies, in Chroniques Greco-romanes (1873) concludes that Voisava was daughter of a Serbian lord from Polog.

                            Fan S. Noli (1882–1965), an Albanian-American writer, in his biography of Skanderbeg (1947), adopted the view that Vojsava came from the Muzaka family.Harry Hodgkinson, too, considers her a member of the Muzaka family, although his work does not provide information from any modern original research.

                            Strashimir Dimitrov (1892-1960), Bulgarian Academician, says that Vojsava was a daughter of a local Bulgarian boyar from Macedonia.

                            Boban Petrovski (b. 1972), a modern Macedonian historian, the author of Voisava Tribalda (2006), the only work about Voisava and her possible geneaologies, concludes that Voisava was of Slavic origin, most likely Serb, the daughter of a lord of the "Triballians" in Polog, that ruled before the Ottoman conquest. He has several thesis on the ultimate identity of Voisava's father; "If the Branković family indeed governed Polog in the last decade of the 14th century, it arises the chance that Voisava was a daughter of Kesar Grgur/Grgur Branković or even Vuk Branković".

                            Oliver Schmitt (b. 1973), professor of South-East European history at Vienna University, in his biography Skanderbeg. Der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan (2009) supports that she was Serbian, from the Branković, close relative to Mara Branković.
                            Grgur is also the slavic form for Gregory and a lot of serbs, croats bear this surname. I think it's 99 % certain that Skanderbeg's mother was of slavic origin.

                            Is there any source that say if Skanderbeg know how to speak slavic? Also are there others informations about the origins of his father/mother?

                            And about Vojsava's children :

                            Voisava married Gjon Kastrioti, the "Lord of a part of Albania" (dominus partium Albanie). She bore 9 children with Gjon, 4 sons and 5 daughters:

                            -Stanisha (†1445).
                            -Reposh, later took monastic vows.
                            -Konstandin.
                            -Mara, married to Stefan I Crnojević.
                            -George - Skanderbeg (1405-1468), Albanian national hero; Ottoman subaşi of Krujė, sanjakbey of Dibra, later organizer of the League of Lezhe, and Napolitan vassal as of 1451.
                            -Jelena, married Pavle Balšić.
                            -Mamica Kastrioti, married Musachio Thopia in 1445.
                            -Angelina, married Vladin Arianites, brother of Gjergj Arianiti.
                            -Vlajka, married Ghin Musachi, secondly Stefan Strez Balšić with whom she possibly had sons Ivan Strez Balšić and Gojko Balšić.

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