Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/225025/article/ekathimerini/news/fyrom-media-reports-un-mediators-name-proposals

According to the Greeks (who are apparently quoting the republic's media), these were the proposals:

1. Republika Nova Makedonija (Republic of New Macedonia)
2. Republika Severna Makedonija (Republic of Northern Macedonia)
3. Republika Gorna Makedonija (Republic of Upper Macedonia)
4. Republika Vardarska Makedonija (Republic of Vardar Macedonia)
5. Republika Makedonija (Skopje) (Republic of Macedonia [Skopje])

[Pelagonija]

In a similar way ... I recall my baba saying "so dve g'zoi" when telling me about how the father of a vocal (local) Macedonian was found dead with his genitals cut off and in his mouth for being a Grkoman back in the selo. The good ole days.

That's interesting, though it says a lot about our people. Back in the good days Greeks were propping up Greek churches and schools in Ottoman Macedonia and presenting these maps to the powers of the time in order to justify their claim to Macedonia, and yet you had Macedonians even then commiting cultural suicide for a buck..

And the audacity of the so called Modern day Greeks referring to Macedonians as Slavophone Greeks. As if somehow they woke up one day and forgot to speak Greek.

[Risto the Great]

Nimetz v.2.0

http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/Greece-and-FYROM-called-to-decide-among-five-names

Although FYROM Ambassador and name negotiator Vasko Naumovski in New York, has reportedly expressed his disagreement with the options, saying that they are all “far from a dignified solution,” and that the name, Republic of Macedonia, is the basis for identity, it is understood that this is not the official opinion of the country's government, which is eager to proceed with negotiations. Special Envoy Nimetz himself has not made any reference to the issue of national identity; he has, however, made provisions for the way citizenship will be stated, opting for the slavic rendition 'Makedonski' in all official passports, with an alternative being 'nationality of the Republika Nova Makedonija'.

Dumb Macebanians will probably accept their nationality as "Makedonski" or "nationality of the Republika Nova Makedonija". Mostly because they can't see beyond their rakija glasses.

Pathetic nation of people!

[Niko777]

KATHIMERINI:
According to well-informed sources, it was clear during Tsipras’s meetings last week with Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias and Archbishop Ieronymos that Greece is leaning towards Republika Vardarska Makejonija (Republic of Vardarska Macedonia) as a settlement, while FYROM prefers Republika Nova Makedonija (Republic of New Macedonia ).

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/greeks-rally-against-use-of-macedonia-in-name-dispute-with-skopje

Greeks rally against use of 'Macedonia' in name dispute with Skopje

Hundreds of thousands of Greeks in the northern city of Thessaloniki rallied to protest against the use of the name “Macedonia” in any solution to a row between Athens and Skopje over the name of the former Yugoslav republic.

Athens argues that the name Macedonia suggests that Skopje has territorial claims to the northern Greek region of the same name, of which Thessaloniki is the capital.

The region was the centre of Alexander the Great's ancient kingdom, a source of Greek pride.

Police said more than 90,000 demonstrators had joined the protest in Thessaloniki, organised by hardline clerics, far-right leaders and Greek diaspora groups.

Protest leaders said at least 400,000 people had turned up.

"We estimate there were at least 400,000 people. It is impressive," rally organiser Anastasios Porgialidis told AFP.

Some minor scuffles erupted between the protesters and anarchists who had organised a counter-demonstration, prompting police to intervene with tear gas.

The rally drew members of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party who had gathered around the statue of Alexander the Great along with local clergy.

Representatives from the main opposition party, New Democracy, were also present despite a tacit order from its liberal-minded leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis to boycott the protests.

On Sunday after the rally, however, Mitsotakis hailed the "impressive turnout that proves the particularly great sensitivity of society to the issue".

Cretans in traditional costumes who travelled from the southern island with their horses, as well as people from northern Greece wearing costumes from the Macedonian wars era a century ago, crowded at the White Tower on the Thessaloniki waterfront from early in the morning.

Police said 284 buses had transported people from around Greece to the port city.

'Not negotiable'

Greece and Macedonia returned to the United Nations last week hoping to reach a compromise that could end the 27-year dispute over the former Yugoslav republic's name.

Greece's objections to the use of the name Macedonia since the Balkan country's independence in 1991 have hampered the tiny nation's bid to join the European Union and NATO.

"We want to warn our politicians not to dare to betray us. Macedonia is Greek and this is not negotiable", said protester Dimitris Triantafillidis, 50, a shop owner from the northern regional district of Pieria.

The UN negotiator Matthew Nimetz -- a 24-year veteran on the issue -- said last week that he was "very hopeful" that a solution was within reach.

Despite the nationalist fervour that is also being fed by Golden Dawn, Greeks appear to be less militant on the issue than in the past.

In 1992, more than one million people -- 10 percent of the population -- joined a rally in Thessaloniki to proclaim that "Macedonia is Greek".

According to a survey conducted for Greek radio station 24/7 by the Alco polling group, 63 percent of respondents said they thought it was in Greece's best interests to seek a mutually acceptable solution at the UN talks.

And the Greek Orthodox Church, which is traditionally opposed to the use of the term Macedonia by Skopje and led the 1992 rally, appears to have distanced itself from Sunday's events.

Its leader Archbishop Ieronymos on Thursday reportedly told Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that "national unity is needed... (not) protests and shouts".

'National stupidity'

Tsipras, who is expected to meet with his Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, next week, said in an interview published Sunday: "If there is an opportunity for a solution, it would be a national stupidity not to make good use of it."

However, he told Ethnos newspaper that he could understand "the concerns and sensitivities" of the Greeks of the north.

Macedonia is known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) at the United Nations, although the Security Council acknowledged this was a provisional name when it agreed to membership.

If a deal is reached at the UN talks, it will be put before Greek parliament for approval, with the government expecting the compromise name to be approved despite opposition within some parties.

According to Macedonian media, Nimetz has proposed five alternatives all containing the name.

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/greeks-rally-dispute-neighbor-macedonia-52501885

Greeks rally over name dispute with neighbor Macedonia

Tens of thousands of flag-waving Greeks gathered in the northern city of Thessaloniki on Sunday to demand that Macedonia change its name because it's also the name of the Greek province of which Thessaloniki is the capital.

Greece and the Republic of Macedonia, which share a border, have been locked in the name dispute since Macedonia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Greeks feel deeply the use of the name Macedonia is a usurpation of their heritage and implies territorial claims on their province.

Macedonia is represented in international organizations as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and is seated in the United Nations under the letter T, right after Thailand. Greece successfully vetoed Macedonia's application to join NATO in 2008.

Sunday's rally was staged in front of a statue of Alexander the Great, the most famous ruler of the ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia. No public official was among the five keynote speakers. The best-known speaker was Fragoulis Frangos, a retired general and former chief of the Greek Army Staff, who is said to harbor political ambitions.

Several local lawmakers attended, as did the local bishop, Metropolitan Anthimos of Thessalonica, whom many people consider the real leader of the nationalist hardliners opposing an accommodation between the countries.

Anthimos, in speaking about the citizens of Macedonia, used the term Skopje, the name of its capital, which is how most Greeks refer to them.

"Demonstrate, my brothers for Macedonia ... Skopje will never be accepted with the name Macedonia by the people's conscience," Anthimos thundered from the pulpit during his sermon. "If we only shut (access) to the port (of Thessaloniki), they're dead the following week."

The rally didn't reach the magnitude of one in 1992, when the name issue first flared up. It was prompted by recent efforts on both sides of the border to find an acceptable compromise. The defeat last year of Macedonia's nationalist conservatives by the social democrats has improved the climate, and Macedonian prime minister Zoran Zaev accepted the invitation by Thessaloniki mayor Yannis Boutaris, an outspoken anti-nationalist, to spend New Year's in the city.

But those who took part in the rally would have none of it.

"Today, the message is aimed primarily at Greek politicians," said Giorgos Tatsios, president of the Greek Federation of Macedonian Cultural Associations. "Those who use the name of Macedonia and give it away with no scruples. We call on the government and, especially, the foreign ministry and (foreign minister Nikos) Kotzias to become the hero of Greek Macedonians and not hand over the name. If he does, he should know he is a traitor to the nation."

Naturally, there were dissenters, but they didn't show up, except for a few hundred anarchists, who had their own banner: "Against nationalism; the whole earth is our homeland." Some of them clashed with passers-by, prompting police to intervene.

People presumed to be right-wing extremists set fire to a building occupied by some of the anarchist counter-demonstrators in the center of the city. The building suffered extensive damage, but none of its occupants was present when masked men set fire to it.

Leftist prime minister Alexis Tsipras has said, most recently in an interview published Sunday in newspaper Ethnos, that he wouldn't mind a composite name that includes the word Macedonia. But his coalition partner, defense minister Panos Kammenos, leader of the Independent Greeks party, has taken a hardline stance, saying he wouldn't accept the inclusion of the name Macedonia, suggesting the neighboring country call itself Vardarska.

[kompir]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/greeks-r...te-with-skopje

greeks rally against use of 'macedonia' in name dispute with skopje

hundreds of thousands of greeks in the northern city of thessaloniki rallied to protest against the use of the name “macedonia” in any solution to a row between athens and skopje over the name of the former yugoslav republic.

Athens argues that the name macedonia suggests that skopje has territorial claims to the northern greek region of the same name, of which thessaloniki is the capital.

The region was the centre of alexander the great's ancient kingdom, a source of greek pride.

Police said more than 90,000 demonstrators had joined the protest in thessaloniki, organised by hardline clerics, far-right leaders and greek diaspora groups.

Protest leaders said at least 400,000 people had turned up.

"we estimate there were at least 400,000 people. It is impressive," rally organiser anastasios porgialidis told afp.

Some minor scuffles erupted between the protesters and anarchists who had organised a counter-demonstration, prompting police to intervene with tear gas.

The rally drew members of the neo-nazi golden dawn party who had gathered around the statue of alexander the great along with local clergy.

Representatives from the main opposition party, new democracy, were also present despite a tacit order from its liberal-minded leader kyriakos mitsotakis to boycott the protests.

On sunday after the rally, however, mitsotakis hailed the "impressive turnout that proves the particularly great sensitivity of society to the issue".

Cretans in traditional costumes who travelled from the southern island with their horses, as well as people from northern greece wearing costumes from the macedonian wars era a century ago, crowded at the white tower on the thessaloniki waterfront from early in the morning.

Police said 284 buses had transported people from around greece to the port city.

'not negotiable'

greece and macedonia returned to the united nations last week hoping to reach a compromise that could end the 27-year dispute over the former yugoslav republic's name.

Greece's objections to the use of the name macedonia since the balkan country's independence in 1991 have hampered the tiny nation's bid to join the european union and nato.

"we want to warn our politicians not to dare to betray us. Macedonia is greek and this is not negotiable", said protester dimitris triantafillidis, 50, a shop owner from the northern regional district of pieria.

The un negotiator matthew nimetz -- a 24-year veteran on the issue -- said last week that he was "very hopeful" that a solution was within reach.

Despite the nationalist fervour that is also being fed by golden dawn, greeks appear to be less militant on the issue than in the past.

In 1992, more than one million people -- 10 percent of the population -- joined a rally in thessaloniki to proclaim that "macedonia is greek".

According to a survey conducted for greek radio station 24/7 by the alco polling group, 63 percent of respondents said they thought it was in greece's best interests to seek a mutually acceptable solution at the un talks.

And the greek orthodox church, which is traditionally opposed to the use of the term macedonia by skopje and led the 1992 rally, appears to have distanced itself from sunday's events.

Its leader archbishop ieronymos on thursday reportedly told prime minister alexis tsipras that "national unity is needed... (not) protests and shouts".

'national stupidity'

tsipras, who is expected to meet with his macedonian counterpart zoran zaev at the world economic forum in davos, switzerland, next week, said in an interview published sunday: "if there is an opportunity for a solution, it would be a national stupidity not to make good use of it."

however, he told ethnos newspaper that he could understand "the concerns and sensitivities" of the greeks of the north.

Macedonia is known as the former yugoslav republic of macedonia (fyrom) at the united nations, although the security council acknowledged this was a provisional name when it agreed to membership.

If a deal is reached at the un talks, it will be put before greek parliament for approval, with the government expecting the compromise name to be approved despite opposition within some parties.

According to macedonian media, nimetz has proposed five alternatives all containing the name.

Еден грк четири пати го сметаат...

[Niko777]

Mayor of Solun Yiannis Boutaris has distanced himself from the protests, stating that the term "Macedonia" used by Greece's neighbor is not a threat to Greece or Greek identity.

Link:http://24vesti.com.mk/butaris-termin...etot-na-grcija

[Risto the Great]

Tens of thousands of flag-waving Greeks ....

Hundreds of thousands of Greeks

Which is it?

[Risto the Great]

Mayor of Solun Yiannis Boutaris has distanced himself from the protests, stating that the term "Macedonia" used by Greece's neighbor is not a threat to Greece or Greek identity.

Link:http://24vesti.com.mk/butaris-termin...etot-na-grcija

... the son of winemaker Stelios Boutaris and Fanny Vlachos, from the Vlach Nichota family in the town of Krusevo .... one would hope he might have a more worldly view.

[Risto the Great]

Either way, and I never thought I would say it ... thank God the Greeks are fighting this hard. It means we hopefully won't become "Composite Makedonijans" any time soon.

[Niko777]

This was unexpected... (This is VMRO-BND, the party where Bulgaria's current Defence Minister comes from)

Bulgarian VMRO: "Greeks, you are not quite right about the name Macedonia"

"We, the Bulgarians, naturally stand behind our brothers in Macedonia in the name dispute. And we want a solution to this dispute. But without anger. No one can deprive people from Macedonia to use the name that our common ancestors used, "

But why then does Athens claim to monopolize this name? Have not thousands of people dying with this name, who today you love to call "Slavic-speaking Hellenes"? Will not their heirs have the right to call their place of birth with the name they called their ancestors?

Now is the time to remind ourselves: friends, Greeks, our coat of arms has three lions - Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia. Do not forget that when you harassing Macedonia, you are harassing us. And we are not afraid of that. Because we remember our history.

Link: http://www.vmro.bg/%D0%B3%D1%8A%D1%8...D%D0%B8%D1%8F/

[Phoenix]

Either way, and I never thought I would say it ... thank God the Greeks are fighting this hard. It means we hopefully won't become "Composite Makedonijans" any time soon.

I'm also grateful that the greeks are far less prepared to entertain compromise than our useless cunts are.

[Risto the Great]

Now is the time to remind ourselves: friends, Greeks, our coat of arms has three lions - Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia. Do not forget that when you harassing Macedonia, you are harassing us. And we are not afraid of that. Because we remember our history.

Link: http://www.vmro.bg/%D0%B3%D1%8A%D1%8...D%D0%B8%D1%8F/

Oh dear, and now let's hear from the Serbs and how they support Macedonia also. Then let me fully experience the deja vu from about 100 years earlier.

Interesting development nonetheless.

[Niko777]

Then let me fully experience the deja vu from about 100 years earlier.

You know what they say, history repeats itself. At least for those who make no effort learning from it.