Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Phoenix]

Not a chance bud.. both sides of the border are governed by EU/US backed communists. The stars have aligned..

The stars may have aligned in terms of two left leaning governments in power but I think the potential for unrest is great enough that either or both governments will fall over this issue.

I think the greek government is at far greater risk of collapse due to this than the Macedonian government is.

When the greeks started this shit-storm three decades ago, they unleashed a totally irrational beast that I can't see being placated easily.
There are very large numbers of totally retarded and delusional greeks that will never accept anything that seems like a backdown or compromise regarding the name.

It's those retarded and delusional greeks, (God bless them) they are the only thing that may save us.

[Vangelovski]

The stars may have aligned in terms of two left leaning governments in power but I think the potential for unrest is great enough that either or both governments will fall over this issue.

Do you really think our degenerate people would really do anything over this issue? I think most of them are secretly happy that (in their mind) they'll finally be able to join the EU and become the promised land of milk and honey.

[Phoenix]

Do you really think our degenerate people would really do anything over this issue? I think most of them are secretly happy that (in their mind) they'll finally be able to join the EU and become the promised land of milk and honey.

I share your views about our side, I’m putting my faith in the degenerate Greeks to torpedo any compromise that our side is willing to concede.

[Pelagonija]

The stars may have aligned in terms of two left leaning governments in power but I think the potential for unrest is great enough that either or both governments will fall over this issue.

I think the greek government is at far greater risk of collapse due to this than the Macedonian government is.

When the greeks started this shit-storm three decades ago, they unleashed a totally irrational beast that I can't see being placated easily.
There are very large numbers of totally retarded and delusional greeks that will never accept anything that seems like a backdown or compromise regarding the name.

It's those retarded and delusional greeks, (God bless them) they are the only thing that may save us.

I would very much like for that to happen, but the Greeks huffed and they puffed over the austerity yet in the end they took the big German kolbas in the guzica.. hence I'm doubtful.

Btw just on a side note, I work at place which resembles the Balkans, i overhead these two Greeks talking the other day, one Greek to the other goes "hey re, Tzpiras is going to give the name up, can you believe that re"

It will be interesting to see what part the Greek diaspora plays.

[Amphipolis]

After the weekend the prospects for an agreement are shrinking.

Kammenos asks for a referendum.

Mitsotakis tries to take distance; he says he will not even participate in a leaders’ council as long as the two government parties have different opinions.

Opinion polls showed more than 70% would vote NO for an agreement with a composite name. Percentages are higher in North Greece and also among younger people.




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[Pelagonija]

I wonder if Zaev is that diseased in the brain that he would consider ridding all references to Macedonia and try and implement the name of central Balkan republic in the event of a Greek veto?

Ultimately I still believe the Greeks will compromise due to external pressure. what's the alternative?

[Phoenix]

I wonder if Zaev is that diseased in the brain that he would consider ridding all references to Macedonia and try and implement the name of central Balkan republic in the event of a Greek veto?

Ultimately I still believe the Greeks will compromise due to external pressure. what's the alternative?

I can't see the greeks compromising to a compound name...they've created too many rabid lunatics to defend their lies, not sure if they can just switch it off now.

[Vangelovski]

I think Zaev will try for a composite name first, but ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if he agrees to a complete change. I don't see any real threat from a long-enslaved and compliant people. I can't think of anyone in Macedonia that actually gives a f*ck anymore. I'm quite convinced that they will be glad to "solve" the name issue.

In fact, I'm sure they'll soon discover a million year old rock with the new name on there just to prove its our 'real' name. We can put it in a museum next to the ventilator rock. And just to make everyone else happy, we can find two million year old rocks with their names and flags on there - Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks, Roma, Vlachs, and even one with "other" written on it.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Some recent articles from the Greek perspective (for those who are interested)

http://www.ekathimerini.com/224913/article/ekathimerini/news/dimitrov-use-of-term-macedonia-not-exlusive-privilege-of-greece

Dimitrov: Use of term 'Macedonia' not exlusive privilege of Greece

http://www.ekathimerini.com/224908/article/ekathimerini/news/seven-in-10-greeks-against-use-of-macedonia-in-name-solution-poll-shows

Seven in 10 Greeks against use of 'Macedonia' in name solution, poll shows

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-macedonia-name-poll/majority-of-greeks-against-use-of-macedonia-in-any-solution-to-name-dispute-poll-idUSKBN1F30M1

Majority of Greeks against use of "Macedonia" in any solution to name dispute: poll

ATHENS (Reuters) - A majority of Greeks do not want the term “Macedonia” used in any solution to a long-running dispute over the former Yugoslav republic’s name, a poll showed on Sunday.

The dispute over the name of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), as it is formally known, has persisted for nearly three decades and has held up its prospects of joining the European Union.

Greece has challenged the name since Macedonia declared independence from Yugoslavia in 1991, saying it implies territorial claims to a Greek province of the same name.

It has only agreed that the country be referred to internationally as “FYROM” until the row is resolved. That is the name under which it was admitted to the United Nations in 1993.

The two neighbors have agreed to form working groups led by foreign ministers to hold talks on a solution. They are hoping for progress in talks with a U.N. mediator on Jan. 17.

Greek government officials have suggested that Athens would try to focus on brokering an agreement that calls for a compound name with a geographical qualifier.

However, a nationwide survey conducted by Marc pollsters last week for the Proto Thema newspaper asked if Greece should agree on a compound name including the term “Macedonia”, with 68 percent responding “no” and 23.6 percent “yes”.

Greeks are highly sensitive about the name issue and rallies are planned in Athens and in northern Greece in the coming weeks against any compromise that might retain the name Macedonia.

Macedonia is also the name of Greece’s largest province and of the ancient northern Greek kingdom ruled by Alexander the Great.

Deputy Foreign Minister George Katrougalos said on Sunday that the government was aiming for resolution to the name issue “with national unity”.

“The solution that we will bring to parliament will be accepted not only by the two government partners but much more broadly,” he said.

[Tomche Makedonche]

I think Zaev will try for a composite name first, but ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if he agrees to a complete change. I don't see any real threat from a long-enslaved and compliant people. I can't think of anyone in Macedonia that actually gives a f*ck anymore. I'm quite convinced that they will be glad to "solve" the name issue.

Its hard to deny that it would likely be seen as an enormous relief to the nation, as though a great weight has finally been lifted off their shoulders.

Unfortunately I feel that many RoMacedonians have finally found the ultimate scapegoat in Zaev, their Martyr in Zaev, I dare say they view Zaev as a Godsend for their abysmal predicament and you will be hard to find many who will actually move to stand against him, including politically in parliament

[Vangelovski]

Its hard to deny that it would likely be seen as an enormous relief to the nation, as though a great weight has finally been lifted off their shoulders.

Unfortunately I feel that many RoMacedonians have finally found the ultimate scapegoat in Zaev, their Martyr in Zaev, I dare say they view Zaev as a Godsend for their abysmal predicament and you will be hard to find many who will actually move to stand against him, including politically in parliament

And then the wait for the German river of gold begins. I can see Zaev pulling out promissory notes from a bag and throwing them into the crowds, "you get a pension, and you get a pension, we all get a pension".

[maco2envy]

Seven in 10 Greeks against use of 'Macedonia' in name solution, poll shows

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKBN1F30M1

Doesn't this just highlight Greek chauvinism? Especially being more prominent in the younger crowds within a financially crippled state. Seriously, you'd think this younger generation would be more engrossed in investing in themselves through education rather than following futile politics.

I don't know who looks more ridiculous in the dispute, whether it's us trying to give up everything to get into some international organisation or if it's the Greeks with their blatant chauvinism.

[Stojacanec]

While the Greeks continue to be bailed out to the tune of $8.4 billion Euros by the European authorities, there is no reason for them but to show their chauvinism towards the name.

[Karposh]

I think Zaev will try for a composite name first, but ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if he agrees to a complete change. I don't see any real threat from a long-enslaved and compliant people. I can't think of anyone in Macedonia that actually gives a f*ck anymore. I'm quite convinced that they will be glad to "solve" the name issue.

Its hard to deny that it would likely be seen as an enormous relief to the nation, as though a great weight has finally been lifted off their shoulders.

Unfortunately I feel that many RoMacedonians have finally found the ultimate scapegoat in Zaev, their Martyr in Zaev, I dare say they view Zaev as a Godsend for their abysmal predicament and you will be hard to find many who will actually move to stand against him, including politically in parliament

And then the wait for the German river of gold begins. I can see Zaev pulling out promissory notes from a bag and throwing them into the crowds, "you get a pension, and you get a pension, we all get a pension".

po nacionalnost sum siromav_00.jpg

If this piece of graffiti is not the ultimate shared sentiment of the nation, I don't know what is - "My Nationality is Poor". It screams:

Fuck Macedonia and Fuck all Macedonian patriots...Just show me the money & Long Live Makebanija!!!

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-name-dispute-greece-skopje-alexander/28979309.html

In 'Macedonia' Name Dispute, Optimism In The Air

It will not happen tomorrow, but a cloud hanging over neighbors Greece and Macedonia for more than two decades might soon be lifted.

Delegations from the two states, headed by their respective negotiators, Adamantios Vassilakis and Vasko Naumovski, are due to meet with UN mediator Matthew Nimetz in New York on January 17 to resume talks over Macedonia's official name, frozen since 2014.

Greece has objected to Macedonia's use of that name -- also a region of northern Greece -- since the former Yugoslav republic's declaration of independence in 1991. Unlike some, Macedonia did not have to fight a war to secure its statehood; but it has been engaged in a diplomatic struggle to keep its name for 26 years.

As a constituent part of Yugoslavia, it had been known as the "Socialist Republic of Macedonia," but its bid to simply drop the Socialist designation and become the sovereign "Republic of Macedonia" was repeatedly thwarted by EU member Greece.

At the forthcoming meeting, Nimetz is expected once again to present the parties with a list of names that have been under discussion before, with only minor changes.

So no one is expected to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

But the meeting could be a major step in the right direction.

'Positive Momentum'

Driving from Thessaloniki toward the Macedonian border, one will not come across any road signs for the state of Macedonia. There is a sign indicating an international border crossing, and the direction of the Macedonian capital, Skopje, is indicated.

Nimetz is nevertheless optimistic about resolving the dispute. He told Greek state television this week that there was "positive momentum" in both countries: "I think the people in both countries are maybe ready to hear some solutions that are consistent with national interests but also have some element of compromise that would resolve the problem."

So far Greece would only countenance referring to its neighbor by the acronym FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia). The country was admitted to the United Nations under that name in 1993, and that designation is used by the EU among others. (Others, including the United States, China, and Russia, routinely use the name Republic of Macedonia in communications with Skopje.)

A compromise solution could involve substituting a new qualifier, such as "Upper," "Northern" or "New Macedonia."

But for many Greeks, even this might be unacceptable. According to a recent poll, more than two-thirds of Greeks are opposed to any mention of "Macedonia," and there are rallies planned in Athens and northern Greece in the weeks ahead.

Reportedly in order to avoid tensions, the Greek prime minister has called on the influential Orthodox Church to refrain from commenting on the Macedonian question.

Clash Of Identities

In Macedonia itself, opinion is divided.

An informal poll conducted by RFE/RL's Balkan Service on January 11 on the streets of Skopje found that many people would like to see the issue resolved one way or another. Yet others are firmly against any concessions, convinced that Macedonia has the right to its own choice of name.

Behind the dispute over the name is a deeper clash of identities. Among other things, there is a tug-of-war over the figure of Alexander the Great -- claimed by Macedonians as an important part of their national identity. The Greeks, meanwhile, argue that their own ancient heritage is being hijacked by their Slavic-speaking neighbors.

"The hardest part of the bargain is that we have to renounce our mythology in order to allow Greek nationalism to incorporate the newly created Greek-Macedonian identity into Ancient Greek mythology," Denko Maleski a professor at the Skopje University Law School, told RFE/RL.

However, Maleski, who was Macedonia's first foreign minister following independence, is optimistic.

"A solution to the name issue is both possible [and desirable], as it would improve [Macedonia's] chances of getting NATO membership," Maleski added.

Indeed, the day before the New York meeting, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg was due to visit Skopje in what was being seen as a clear show of support for Macedonia's Euro-Atlantic integration, including NATO membership.

Ismet Ramadani, head of the Macedonian Euro Atlantic Council and adviser to Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev, spoke of "a decisive week" ahead and a "historical moment."

But he also cautioned that optimism and good intentions alone were not enough, telling regional news agency IBNA that "there must be concrete results in reaching an acceptable compromises [sic] on the name dispute."

Having just emerged from a prolonged internal political crisis, the new Macedonian government may be keen to resolve a longstanding dispute with its neighbor -- particularly as it may smooth the way to EU and NATO membership.

'Historic Chance'

Greece, too, has an interest in shoring up regional stability.

According to Macedonian Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov, both sides are obliged to seize the "historic chance" following a turbulent few months in the wider Balkan region.

"I think the public can be very happy that now someone is raising the name issue as it indicates that the country's stability has returned," said Skopje professor Toni Deskoski.

The focus on EU and NATO integration, and better relations among neighbors, appear to contrast with the policy of the previous Macedonian government. The government has shown a willingness to compromise, for instance by agreeing to become a NATO member as "FYROM" rather than Macedonia -- even if this is unpopular at home.

But political analyst Albert Musliu suggests that this flexibility could strengthen Macedonia's hand in future negotiations.

"We had to change the narrative while resolving the name issue, because we cannot box with Greece while negotiating, and I think that is exactly the strategy of the new government," Musliu said. "Let's not forget that Greece is a full member of NATO, and it's a voice we depend on for gaining membership in European institutions. I believe that the strategy now is improving and softening the relations with our neighbors, especially Greece, but it is for our partners to also help for Athens to understand Macedonia's position."

For most Macedonians, nomen est omen. But there appears to be a recognition on someone's part that short-term compromises on the name issue may benefit their country over the long term.