Linear B and the Mycenaean language

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #16
    Here is a summary of an interesting book by Saul Levin which analyses the so-called decipherment of Ventris and Chadwick. I will post some pages once I read through it.
    The Linear B Decipherment Controversy Re-Examined

    Summary


    Examines the evidence for the phonetic value of individual Linear B characters.

    Michael Ventris’s decipherment of the pre-historic Linear B tablets discovered in Greece and Crete provided one of the most dramatic moments in recent historical research. The controversy provoked by his work has to a large degree polarized scholarly opinion between wholehearted acclamation and complete rejection, making rational analysis difficult. Professor Levin believes that only an objective and methodical study of all the relevant details can produce an adequate evaluation of the discovery.

    On this principle, he sifts the evidence for the phonetic value of individual Linear B characters, first as Ventris did it, then as it can now be done with more material than he had. This discloses that Ventris’s procedure was eclectic and more intuitive than scientific; yet a strict critique verifies his transcription of about a third of the characters. While this verification is a matter of degree—some are beyond reasonable doubt; others are only fairly probable—the remaining two-thirds of the characters elude testing and can be neither proved nor disproved. Bits of genuine Greek emerge from the tablets, but much less than Ventris and his supporters claim. The meaning of most Linear B words remains quite conjectural.

    Furthermore, the critique, when applied to the prefixes and suffixes, reveals a few that are characteristic of Greek but more than are profoundly irreconcilable with it. This indicates the presence of another language or languages, most likely mixed with Greek into a jargon. Professor Levin concludes that we cannot rationally look for one uniform language in the Linear B texts. How much is Greek is very doubtful, so many historical interpretations which have been erected upon an enthusiastic adherence to all of Ventris’s conclusions will need to be reconsidered.

    This study, seeking to ascertain what is sound in Ventris’s decipherment, helps clear away unsupported guesses and brings into prominence all that can serve as a reliable basis for further knowledge of the languages of the ancient Aegean world—and, through them, knowledge of these early roots of our civilization. By subjecting the work of Ventris to the cool-headed analysis any major work of scholarship deserves, Professor Levin puts the work in truer perspective and demonstrates in a more profound sense that, despite errors in method and interpretation, Ventris must be regarded as one of the significant pioneers in research in the historical sciences.

    Saul Levin obtained his A.B. and Ph.D. in Greek at the University of Chicago and also studied Hebrew at Harvard and, as a Faculty Fellow of the Fund for the Advancement of Education, linguistics and the transmission of texts at Chicago. His translations, critical essays, and reviews have been published widely in the professional journals, and his translation of To Romeby Aelius Aristides, with notes and introduction, was published in 1950. He is now Professor of Greek at Harpur College of the State University of New York.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

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    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      #17
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Here is a summary of an interesting book by Saul Levin which analyses the so-called decipherment of Ventris and Chadwick. I will post some pages once I read through it.
      Thanks SoM.

      This was a very interesting quote:

      Furthermore, the critique, when applied to the prefixes and suffixes, reveals a few that are characteristic of Greek but more than are profoundly irreconcilable with it. This indicates the presence of another language or languages, most likely mixed with Greek into a jargon. Professor Levin concludes that we cannot rationally look for one uniform language in the Linear B texts. How much is Greek is very doubtful, so many historical interpretations which have been erected upon an enthusiastic adherence to all of Ventris’s conclusions will need to be reconsidered.

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      • tchaiku
        Member
        • Nov 2016
        • 786

        #18
        Originally posted by Carlin View Post
        Lost Languages from the Mediterranean, By Jan G. P. Best


        Page 52: "After the decipherment of Linear A in 1981, it is not difficult to see that the many Phoenician and Akkadian loanwords on the Linear B tablets from Knossos and other sites in the Greek mainland stem directly from the language of the Linear A tablets from Hagia Triada."

        Page 53: "Linear A together with Linear B, Linear B together with Linear A, Phoenicians together with Greeks, Greeks together with Phoenicians: not exactly compatible with John Chadwick's pure Greek in Linear B."
        I agree. ...

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        • tchaiku
          Member
          • Nov 2016
          • 786

          #19

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          • Amphipolis
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 1328

            #20
            Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
            I agree. ...
            You... do? It's good we have an expert in Linear A & B. Tell us more.

            Now me, for instance, I didn't even know Linear A was deciphered in 1981 (I must have totally missed that).

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            • tchaiku
              Member
              • Nov 2016
              • 786

              #21
              Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
              You... do? It's good we have an expert in Linear A & B. Tell us more.

              Now me, for instance, I didn't even know Linear A was deciphered in 1981 (I must have totally missed that).
              I was talking about the replacement of the Mycenaean language with a new alphabet influenced by that of Phoenicians. Do you have any theory why did this happen?

              Btw when was Linear A deciphered?
              Last edited by tchaiku; 02-04-2018, 02:31 PM.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                #22
                tchaiku,

                - The official story is as follows: Linear A is one of two currently undeciphered writing systems used in ancient Greece (Cretan hieroglyphic is the other).
                - In 2001, the journal Ugarit-Forschungen published the article "The First Inscription in Punic — Vowel Differences in Linear A and B" by Jan Best (the same author I quoted above - he stated it was deciphered in 1981), claiming to demonstrate how and why Linear A notates an archaic form of Phoenician. This was a continuation of attempts by Cyrus Gordon in finding connections between Minoan and West Semitic languages.



                Here is C. Gordon's Semitic Inscriptions From Greece.










                Comment

                • Liberator of Makedonija
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 1595

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                  tchaiku,

                  - The official story is as follows: Linear A is one of two currently undeciphered writing systems used in ancient Greece (Cretan hieroglyphic is the other).
                  - In 2001, the journal Ugarit-Forschungen published the article "The First Inscription in Punic — Vowel Differences in Linear A and B" by Jan Best (the same author I quoted above - he stated it was deciphered in 1981), claiming to demonstrate how and why Linear A notates an archaic form of Phoenician. This was a continuation of attempts by Cyrus Gordon in finding connections between Minoan and West Semitic languages.



                  Here is C. Gordon's Semitic Inscriptions From Greece.











                  Interesting, so in summary this author believes the language written in Linear A to be Semetic?
                  I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                    Interesting, so in summary this author believes the language written in Linear A to be Semetic?
                    Yes, Semitic.

                    Comment

                    • Liberator of Makedonija
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 1595

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                      Yes, Semitic.
                      There was strong Phonecian influence in the region so it's a likely possibility.
                      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        #26
                        The Problem of Semitic in Ancient Crete
                        Michael C. Astour
                        Journal of the American Oriental Society
                        Vol. 87, No. 3 (Jul. - Sep., 1967), pp. 290-295

                        URL:
                        JSTOR is a digital library of academic journals, books, and primary sources.


                        Did Gordon prove his point? In this reviewer's opinion, and with the author's own reservations about some of his "tentative suggestions," he certainly did. The systematic presentation of the Minoan-Eteocretan linguistic picture will be of very great interest to those acquainted with ancient Semitic languages and able to evaluate Gordon's findings on their proper ground. Hitherto, the scholars' general reluctance to agree with Gordon's earlier publications on this topic was caused not so much by linguistic criteria as by a certain almost inborn incredulity stemming from a deeply rooted set of preconceptions.

                        One of the frequently heard arguments is that Linear A is allegedly "undeciphered" and therefore no understanding of it is possible. Those who say so commit a fault of terminology (this is also true for Gordon's own use of the term "decipherment"). With Johannes Friedrich, a distinction must be made between "decipherment" (establishing the phonetic values of an unknown script) and "interpretation", i.e. establishing the semantic values of an unknown language written in a readable script.
                        Last edited by Carlin; 02-09-2018, 11:52 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          #27
                          The picture below comes from the book Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity, by Jonathan M. Hall.

                          URL:
                          The purpose of this book is to show that the ethnic groups of ancient Greece, like many ethnic groups throughout the world today, were not ultimately racial, linguistic, religious or cultural, but social groups whose "origins" in extraneous territories were just as often imagined as they were real. This is the first study to treat the subject from a truly interdisciplinary point of view, embracing literature, myth, archaeology, linguistics and social anthropology. It also outlines the history of the study of ethnicity in Greek antiquity.


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                          • tchaiku
                            Member
                            • Nov 2016
                            • 786

                            #28
                            List of Greek deities found on Mycenaean tablets

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                            • tchaiku
                              Member
                              • Nov 2016
                              • 786

                              #29
                              Homer mentions that during the time of the Trojan War, Miletus was an ally of Troy and was city of the Carians, under Naster and Amphimachus.

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                              • Om3n
                                Junior Member
                                • Feb 2009
                                • 46

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
                                There was strong Phonecian influence in the region so it's a likely possibility.
                                Greece is called "Yunan" in Hebrew and Arabic, i.e. "Javan" or "Jonah" as it is commonly translated. This is because in the Hebrew anthropology, Javan, the grandson of Noah, and his sons were believed to have settled on "the islands", that is, Cyprus, Crete and Greece proper.

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