Isocrates - Letter to Phillip II of Macedon (4th Century BC)

[Onur]

...to wrest from it a vast extent of territory and sever from it—to use a current phrase—“Asia from Cilicia to Sinope”;

So, from today`s city of Adana at Mediterranean coast, to Sinop at Blacksea coast in central Anatolia, from the most southern point to most northest. Is there any document which mentions of any migration to Anatolia or this plan never realized?

[Epirot]

Thank you very much for sharing the original quote!

[Epirot]

While I was searching about using of 'Barbarian' notion in several contextes in antiquity I found the following text:

Thucydides 4.124-7 maintains that they were ‘barbarian’; so also Isocrates, Philipus 106-8, Demosthenes, Olynth.3.24.

Medieval and modern Greek By Robert Browning, 1983, p.2.

http://books.google.com/books?id=b55B1J7I99AC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=The+language+of+the+Epirotes+is+repeatedly+described+in+antiquity+as+non-+Greek&source=bl&ots=pu7i8r5pGT&sig=j2fmbgF-iXx2cTE52xDvrUNXYtU&hl=en&ei=3BcVTZLpO4a6jAe25vX1BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20language%20of%20the%20Epirotes%20is%20repeatedly%20described%20in%20antiquity%20as%20non-%20Greek&f=false

In fact, this is the first time I acknowledged that Macedonians were labeled as 'Barbarians' by Isocrates. I could not verify anything so far.
Soldier of Macedon you seem well-informed about Isocrates speeches...do you know the exact passage where Isocrates denote Macedonians as Barbarians?

[Akzion]

Well, not exactly. Actually there are two contradictory passages (in bold)

From letter to Philip (107-108)
[He refers to Philip’s father, King Amyntas II]
For they endeavored to win this honor by engendering factions, disorder, and bloodshed in their own cities; he, on the other hand, held entirely aloof from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon. For he knew full well that the Hellenes were not accustomed to submit to the rule of one man, while the other races were incapable of ordering their lives without the control of some such power.
And so it came about, owing to his unique insight in this regard, that his kingship has proved to be quite set apart from that of the generality of kings: for, because he alone among the Hellenes did not claim the right to rule over a people of kindred race, he alone was able to escape the perils incident to one-man power. For history discovers to us the fact that those among the Hellenes who have managed to acquire such authority have not only been destroyed themselves but have been blotted, root and branch, from the face of the earth; while he, on the contrary, lived a long and happy life and left his seed in possession of the same honors which he himself had enjoyed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Well, not exactly. Actually there are two contradictory passages (in bold)

There's no contradiction, you just need to employ logical interpretation.

From letter to Philip (107-108)
[He refers to Philip’s father, King Amyntas II]

Wrong. He refers to the "founder of your empire" - meaning Perdiccas (the inclusion of Caranus to the myth came later) - who (apparenty) lived centuries before the time of Phillip. Read the passage properly.

And the founder of your empire, although he aspired higher than did his fellow citizens and set his heart on a king's power, was not minded to take the same road as others who set out to attain a like ambition. For they endeavored to win this honor by engendering factions, disorder, and bloodshed in their own cities; he, on the other hand, held entirely aloof from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon. For he knew full well that the Hellenes were not accustomed to submit to the rule of one man, while the other races were incapable of ordering their lives without the control of some such power.
And so it came about, owing to his unique insight in this regard, that his kingship has proved to be quite set apart from that of the generality of kings: for, because he alone among the Hellenes did not claim the right to rule over a people of kindred race, he alone was able to escape the perils incident to one-man power. For history discovers to us the fact that those among the Hellenes who have managed to acquire such authority have not only been destroyed themselves but have been blotted, root and branch, from the face of the earth; while he, on the contrary, lived a long and happy life and left his seed in possession of the same honors which he himself had enjoyed.

The above shows Isocrates using the fanciful claim first made by Herodotus in conjunction with Alexander the 'Philhellene', where a mythical heritage is conjured for the Macedonian royal house. It was done purely for political purposes, to give Alexander more credibility in the ancient world and what was then perceived to be the more 'civilised' society of the Hellenes. There is no such claim prior. It was not an unusual phenomena for that period in any case; Herodotus also ties the Scythians and Persians to mythical figures such as Heracles and Perseus, who feature among the gods worshipped by Hellenes. This is the only Hellenic 'connection' that Isocrates can refer to in his desperate plea to Phillip. He does not consider the Macedonian people as Greeks. He was a frightened opportunist that is trying to appeal to the Macedonian king's lenient side. The quote from Peter Green on the first page explains it well:

"taken as a whole the Address to Philip must have caused its recipient considerable sardonic amusement........Its ethnic conceit was only equalled by its naivety..........though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage (a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress."

That is the logical conclusion. Phillip couldn't care less about what Isocrates was whining about, and the Macedonian victory over of the Athenian-led Greeks at Chaeronea proved that. Let the fate of Isocrates be an indication of Phillip's intentions all along:

On a pillar is a statue of Isocrates, whose memory is remarkable for three things: his diligence in continuing to teach to the end of his ninety-eight years, his self-restraint in keeping aloof from politics and from interfering with public affairs, and his love of liberty in dying a voluntary death, distressed at the news of the battle at Chaeronea (Pausanias, 1.18.8).

[George S.]

i have to agree with you spartan that the macedonians & hellenes were seperate people.

[Agamoi Thytai]

History is full of Macedonian battles against the Hellenes, Isocrates would have died 10 times over had he known about all of the other Macedonian victories against the Hellenes in subsequent years.

History is also ful of Hellenes vs Athenians battles

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7517/grbar258.png

Hellenes vs Spartans

The Lacedaemonians, who were hard put to it by their double war, that against the Greeks and that against the Persians...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D14%3Achapter%3D110%3Asection%3D2

and Hellenes vs Thebans

When twenty days were gone by, and the violence of the Greeks
did not slacken, Timagenidas thus bespake his countrymen-
"Ye men of Thebes, since the Greeks have so decreed, that they
will never desist from the siege till either they take Thebes or we
are delivered to them, we would not that the land of Boeotia should
suffer any longer on our behalf"

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Herodotus/Calliope/eng/302.html

Isocrates would also have prefered to die a thousand times than seeing the humiliation his defeated ancestors suffered 80 years ago at the hands of the victorious Peloponnesians who demolished the Athenian walls under the music of flutes and claiming "this day was the begining of Greek freedom":

http://books.google.gr/books?id=bn5Nz5yjGUIC&pg=PA1&dq=demolish+the+walls+to+the+music+of+flute-girls,+thinking+that+that+.+day+was+the+beginning+of+freedom+for+Greece.&hl=el&ei=VqQcTfCkFoi38QPEz-izBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=demolish%20the%20walls%20to%20the%20music%20of%20flute-girls%2C%20thinking%20that%20that%20.%20day%20was%20the%20beginning%20of%20freedom%20for%20Greece.&f=false

I guess he was as naive as modern Greeks are today about what the Macedonian kings represented.

What did really the Macedonian kings represented?Polybius described it perfectly in his Histories,and he was certainly not naive:

What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks? For that Greece would have been continually involved in great dangers, if we had not had the Macedonians and the ambition of their kings as a barrier, who is ignorant?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D35

[George S.]

A barbarian means a non greek ,the greeks could not understand the ancient macedonian language.Alexander & phillip can be best described as phillhellene (love of greek culture)at most where as the skapani grks think today that they were greek & nothing else.Remember demosthenes said that the macedonians were barbarian race not related to the greeks where you can't even buy a decent slave.Where as the greeks had the city states & macedonia was not a city state but a kingdom with a king & did not practice slavery like the greeks.I

[Pelister]

History is also ful of Hellenes vs Athenians battles

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7517/grbar258.png

Hellenes vs Spartans

The Lacedaemonians, who were hard put to it by their double war, that against the Greeks and that against the Persians...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084%3Abook%3D14%3Achapter%3D110%3Asection%3D2

and Hellenes vs Thebans

When twenty days were gone by, and the violence of the Greeks
did not slacken, Timagenidas thus bespake his countrymen-
"Ye men of Thebes, since the Greeks have so decreed, that they
will never desist from the siege till either they take Thebes or we
are delivered to them, we would not that the land of Boeotia should
suffer any longer on our behalf"

http://www.greektexts.com/library/Herodotus/Calliope/eng/302.html

Isocrates would also have prefered to die a thousand times than seeing the humiliation his defeated ancestors suffered 80 years ago at the hands of the victorious Peloponnesians who demolished the Athenian walls under the music of flutes and claiming "this day was the begining of Greek freedom":

http://books.google.gr/books?id=bn5Nz5yjGUIC&pg=PA1&dq=demolish+the+walls+to+the+music+of+flute-girls,+thinking+that+that+.+day+was+the+beginning+of+freedom+for+Greece.&hl=el&ei=VqQcTfCkFoi38QPEz-izBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=demolish%20the%20walls%20to%20the%20music%20of%20flute-girls%2C%20thinking%20that%20that%20.%20day%20was%20the%20beginning%20of%20freedom%20for%20Greece.&f=false

What did really the Macedonian kings represented?Polybius described it perfectly in his Histories,and he was certainly not naive:

What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks? For that Greece would have been continually involved in great dangers, if we had not had the Macedonians and the ambition of their kings as a barrier, who is ignorant?
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Achapter%3D35

Again, New Greeks today with their sham heritage, and sham historical legacy, have a way of saying everything under the sun and proving nothing.

Where is the proof that the ancient Macedonians were 'Greeks'? If we can point to a dozen ancient writers who independently asserted that neither the Macedonians thought they were Greeks, and neither the Greeks (individually and as a whole), thought they were Greeks, you can't do much better than that.

The only reason these New Greeks are saying what they are saying is because they occupy Macedonian territory that never belonged to 'Greece', anytime in history before 1913. The New Greeks have no right and no legitimate claim to be the inheritors and heirs of the ancient Greeks. Its a sham, and their 'claims' to Macedonian territory are a sham. I hope someone takes that facile triumphalism you New Greeks revel in and export, and shoves it back down your Albanian and Turkish throats.

[Louis Riel]

Does anyone know if any Greek writing was found in the tomb thats supposedly that of Phillip 2?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Does anyone know if any Greek writing was found in the tomb thats supposedly that of Phillip 2?

I believe it was Roman? Keep in mind the Greeks (?) LOVE to alter writing often - tombstones after 1912 were all changed so what do you think about 3,000 years ago?

Not long ago they found at priests robe buried in Lerin the only problem was that the writing on it was not Greek - Pre 1913 and more then likely 1890's.

[Louis Riel]

Its ancient Macedonian.

I dont doubt the pettiness of certain people and the lengths theyll go to to promote their truth but as far as i know there hasnt been any writing found.....at least none concerning the identity of the resident corpse.

[George S.]

Theres been certain people shall we say outspoken in the archaelogical world from greece who have been suddenly assasinated in the night.They spoke out in that the finds were too fantastic to be greek & they could not be possibly be greek.How can one race of people be another race of people it's nonsensical & defies logic.Also over the border in greece they go as much as rip gravestones & change toponyms renaming people with greek versions & places so don't be surprised if they go to the extent of falsifying archaelogical digs.Proven fact on mto threads that a lot of the coins found in greece are forgeries busted by our TM.Also in ROM a fellow found a macedonian helmet from alexanders time so the greeks offered to buy the helmet for $1million euros & then say they found it on greek territory.Do people know that the greeks do not let outsiders to study artifacts unless it's approved by them.They only want you to see what they want themselves for youto see.

[Bill77]

Again, New Greeks today with their sham heritage, and sham historical legacy, have a way of saying everything under the sun and proving nothing.

Where is the proof that the ancient Macedonians were 'Greeks'? If we can point to a dozen ancient writers who independently asserted that neither the Macedonians thought they were Greeks, and neither the Greeks (individually and as a whole), thought they were Greeks, you can't do much better than that.

This is an example of there mentality and where they get evidence from. lol

Get Real Auzzies
Posted by: True Blue Greek, Craigieburn Vic, on 7/05/2010 10:32:47 AM
The Greeks made this country what it is. Remeber my big fat greek wedding well! yes we made democracy

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=51961&postcount=1

Parts of A Oliver Stone movie is another they quote and find as gospel.

[George S.]

THe whole thing is a sham is right how about the myth how macedonians originated there was magnes & makedon supposedly related brothers?If that is so how can the two be the same people.Even the greeks make mistakes they forgot to obliterate.So we need macedonian writers (ancient) preferably to say there are differences.