Does Macedonia belong to the Balkan or Aegean world

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • nushevski77
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2018
    • 19

    Does Macedonia belong to the Balkan or Aegean world

    post deleted
    Last edited by nushevski77; 09-19-2020, 02:40 PM.
  • Liberator of Makedonija
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 1595

    #2
    Sort of on the crossroads of both. Even in antiquity Macedonia was divided into an 'Upper' and 'Lower'. Lower Macedonia was were the capital and other towns were located, it was the fertile flat plain that was utilised for agriculture and had access to the Aegean Sea. Upper Macedonia was ruggid and inhabited by Illyrian tribes who remained largely independent of the Macedonian government until Philip II brought them under the control of Pella. Even here we can see the crossroads between Balkan and Aegean.
    I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      #3
      Macedonia has always been at a crossroads of civilizations and cultures, but it belongs to the Balkans.

      I would disagree with the idea that it belongs to the Aegean world. I am not sure what it means as a 'definition' - when I think of the Aegean I think of Cyprus, the islands, etc.

      I would say Macedonia belonged/belongs to the Slavic world and civilization for obvious reasons: language, the Cyrillic alphabet having its roots in Macedonia, Ohrid literary school. This to me is a no-brainer if you will.

      Comment

      • sydney
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 390

        #4
        Carlin, applying your beliefs only with a modern lens makes sense but doesn’t make it generally conclusive. The term Aegean - for me - describes pre-Greek civilisations south of the Balkans and later on Hellenistic culture. Macedonia became to be Aegean (most likely both) but was never originally Aegean. Did Macedonia under Roman rule start to Balkanise again? Most likely considering the separation of Macedonia into provinces. The blip in my timeline is what happened next such as Christianity and the prescribed movement of peoples through these ages. If I try and align with your thinking that Macedonia belongs to a Slavic world, you’re saying language was the reason why. But we’re talking about geographic regions whereby peoples are influencing each other. The Balkans was never only ‘Slavic’ and still today is not only Slavic, so how can there be a Slavic world? Do you feel kinship with other ‘Slavs’?

        Comment

        • Gocka
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2012
          • 2306

          #5
          Originally posted by sydney View Post
          The Balkans was never only ‘Slavic’ and still today is not only Slavic, so how can there be a Slavic world? Do you feel kinship with other ‘Slavs’?
          Even if you look at it only from a modern perspective I don't see how anyone could say "Slavic world". Macedonia's last 500 years are characterized by Ottoman occupation and the struggle against it. The ottomans had a massive and lasting impact. Our food, language, music, and customs all changed in those centuries. I don't see how "Slavic" peoples in Ukraine or Poland could have gone through similar changes culturally.

          Another large part of our identity our Orthodox Christian faith I see as rooted in south east Europe not in "Slavic" culture.

          I fail to see "Slavic-ness" in any part of our culture apart form our spoken language, while the written language is based off of Greek and originated in Macedonia.

          Antiquity was not Slavic, Roman period was not Slavic, then maybe for a period their was Slavic influence, then Byzantine and Ottoman again not Slavic. The Slavs may or may not have had an influence for a few centuries in the middle of our existence timeline and yet somehow their contribution is the only one that stuck?

          I don't get it.

          Comment

          • sydney
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 390

            #6
            Bang on Gocka.

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              #7
              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              Even if you look at it only from a modern perspective I don't see how anyone could say "Slavic world". Macedonia's last 500 years are characterized by Ottoman occupation and the struggle against it. The ottomans had a massive and lasting impact. Our food, language, music, and customs all changed in those centuries. I don't see how "Slavic" peoples in Ukraine or Poland could have gone through similar changes culturally.

              Another large part of our identity our Orthodox Christian faith I see as rooted in south east Europe not in "Slavic" culture.

              I fail to see "Slavic-ness" in any part of our culture apart form our spoken language, while the written language is based off of Greek and originated in Macedonia.

              Antiquity was not Slavic, Roman period was not Slavic, then maybe for a period their was Slavic influence, then Byzantine and Ottoman again not Slavic. The Slavs may or may not have had an influence for a few centuries in the middle of our existence timeline and yet somehow their contribution is the only one that stuck?

              I don't get it.
              Epa, taka e brat.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                #8
                Slavic world/civilization in a sense that Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak various Slavic languages - and yes Slavs are diverse both genetically and culturally. Language is very much an important 'mark' of culture and Macedonian belongs to it the same way Italian or Catalan might belong to the Latin/Romance group of languages. Top points for Macedonia having been the birthplace of both the Glagolitic script and Cyrillic script.

                I did specify in my initial response (the first sentence) that Macedonia belongs to the Balkans. This encompasses the Ottoman impact as well as the Balkan Sprachbund, and other markers (i.e. Orthodox faith and culture, "Byzantine" civilization).

                In the end, if you really want to get nitpicky Macedonia belongs to a few different "worlds" and "civilizations" hence the crossroads of civilizations and cultures.


                Medieval, Slavic Macedonia (c. 600 - c. 1400):
                Last edited by Carlin; 02-09-2019, 11:04 AM.

                Comment

                • vicsinad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2011
                  • 2337

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                  Slavic world/civilization in a sense that Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak various Slavic languages - and yes Slavs are diverse both genetically and culturally.

                  Sure, Slavic world because we speak a language found in the same language family and share some common cultural bonds. You're way out of line, though, by calling it ethno-linguistic. Unless you have some knowledge about us having a common ethnicity (or even ancestry) with the Poles and Russians?

                  This need not only to feel, but to actually think, that there is this proximal connection to Slavic groups outside the Balkans is quite disappointing. There is little proof of it. It's just a remnant of outdated Russian and Yugoslav propaganda.

                  I just wonder if you'd consider the ethnic English part of the Germanic ethno-linguistic group because they share some ancestry, culture and linguistic roots? Or the Norwegians and the Germans? I wonder if the Mexicans and Venezuelans feel this attached to Spain and the Romance-speaking people because they share a common language and some ancestry/genetics?

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    #10
                    I want to add: I've done a lot of research and writing about Macedonian immigration to America from the late 1800s through the mid 1900s. There was virtually no talk from any of them about these "Slav bonds" until the 1930s when those Macedonians seeking to create an autonomous Macedonia within a Balkan Federation fell in line with the Comintern's thinking on this matter. It is also how the MPL in America managed to get American government officials of Polish, Czech, and etc. background to back their fight.

                    The earliest immigrants from the 1880s through the 1920s, however, never mentioned this Slav commonality. Perhaps there were those who identified as Bulgarian, Greek, and Serb based on neighboring Balkan propaganda. That propaganda narrative shifted in the 1930s and 1940s and voila: we're Slavs!

                    The uneducated Macedonian peasant, however, offers us the best insights to what they thought they were because they were never subjected to propaganda: Christian and/or Macedonian. Our folk songs, too, demonstrate this.

                    Gocka's analysis is spot on.

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      #11
                      I really don't understand what is so problematic or out of line about what I said. I did state that Slavs are diverse both genetically and culturally. For example, DNA/genetic studies have shown and largely disproven the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian theories/scholarship about the 'pure Slavic descent' of Macedonians. The DNA studies have also demonstrated that Macedonians do have some Slavic 'component'.

                      Yes, Germanic language speakers would be for instance: English speakers, German speakers, “Low German” or Low Saxon, Dutch, etc. We know roughly where the Germanic Angles, Saxons and Jutes came from:
                      The History of the Works of the Learned - Published in the year of 1699 The Saxons and Frisians were two allied tribes, settled in Northern Europe: Saxony, Frisia and Britain. They are now considered to have been Old Germanic tribes. ButAccording to the authors of this book, before they settled among the other Germanic


                      Personifications of Sclavinia, Germania, Gallia, and Roma, bringing offerings to Otto III; from a gospel book dated 990
                      Last edited by Carlin; 02-09-2019, 11:28 AM.

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                        I really don't understand what is so problematic or out of line about what I said. I did state that Slavs are diverse both genetically and culturally. For example, DNA/genetic studies have shown and largely disproven the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian theories/scholarship about the 'pure Slavic descent' of Macedonians. The DNA studies have also demonstrated that Macedonians do have some Slavic 'component'.

                        Yes, Germanic language speakers would be for instance: English speakers, German speakers, “Low German” or Low Saxon, Dutch, etc. We know roughly where the Germanic Angles, Saxons and Jutes came from:
                        The History of the Works of the Learned - Published in the year of 1699 The Saxons and Frisians were two allied tribes, settled in Northern Europe: Saxony, Frisia and Britain. They are now considered to have been Old Germanic tribes. ButAccording to the authors of this book, before they settled among the other Germanic


                        Personifications of Sclavinia, Germania, Gallia, and Roma, bringing offerings to Otto III; from a gospel book dated 990
                        You said that Slavs are an ethno-linguistic group. What does that mean to you? The common definition is "a group that is unified by both a common ethnicity and language." Does that mean Poles and Macedonians are unified by a common ethnicity and language?

                        Comment

                        • Gocka
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2012
                          • 2306

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          I really don't understand what is so problematic or out of line about what I said.
                          Its problematic because efforts to link Macedonians to Slavs are rooted in attempts to take the Macedonian out of our culture and appropriate us to some other culture. Its rooted in attempts to take our ancestry out of Macedonia. Are Slavs native to Macedonia? So if my culture and ethnicity are not native to Macedonia, then how am I Macedonian?

                          What commonality do we share with other so called Slavs? You have said yourself that major parts of our culture are rooted in the Balkans, if so then what is so Slavic about us?

                          As I understand it, in your book language supersedes all else? We are all ethnically Slavic because our language is Slavic? I don't see other cultures in Europe solely defined and labeled based on common language alone?

                          You live in Canada I believe, so I am sure you have come in contact with Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Slovaks, etc correct? Where I live in NJ we have tons of Poles, Russians, and Ukrainians. I see 0 commonality with them apart from people white people from Europe, and on top of that they are a very different kind of white than we are. Their language although common in root is almost unintelligible, there food completely different, there music not even close. Apart from a common root language and in some cases the Orthodox faith, what commonality is there?

                          I feel much more similar and at home with Italians and Turks than even Slovaks or even Slovenes who are on our doorstep.

                          This is a bullshit argument and I'm a little offended that we are having it.

                          Comment

                          • YuriB
                            Junior Member
                            • Jan 2019
                            • 54

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                            IAre Slavs native to Macedonia?
                            What is the definition of native? It seems like an overloaded term.

                            We all evolved in Africa. Thus, we are all native Africans (and more specifically, Ethiopians?) as a species.

                            I would say a culture is native to the area it emerged in.

                            Our Indo-European common ancestors might have called home what is now Ukraine. Once they moved south though, they evolved recursively over time to new cultural groups.

                            Thus, I'd conclude that the culture of Macedonians (and Greeks and others in the area) is native. However, I wouldn't make any such biological claim.
                            Regards,
                            A Greek supporting self-determination of Macedonians!

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              #15
                              Hard to deny the linguistic grouping. But the ethnic grouping is over-reaching in my opinion.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X