Rome, Macedonia and the Schism

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  • Krivan
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2010
    • 46

    Rome, Macedonia and the Schism

    I want to start a discussion about the Schism and the relations between Rome and Macedonia, and whether it might be better to reunite with Rome or continue the division.

    As long-rooted is our culture in Orthodox Christianity, I've been looking to Rome as answer to some of our problems. The current Macedonian Orthodox Church isn't recognized by any of Orthodox Churches nor the Church of Rome, and is considered schismatic by Orthodox Patriarchs.

    Obviously, the Church is not schismatic and deserves recognition by other Churches - but for politico-national reasons, it will never get the recognition it deserves. In reality, this recognition might matter little as Orthodox Christians seldom support others outside their national church.

    Is there a good reason to continue the schism initiated by the greed of Constantinople bishops and politicians? I can't see too many good reasons. What should be done is reconcile with Rome, end the schism, but this doesn't mean the end of the Macedonian Church. It would continue to operate as same as now. The only difference, a very significant difference, is the Church would be considered Catholic, and be regarded in the same status as the Anglican Church.

    In other words, our Church would be in full communion with Rome but it will continue to preserve our cultural and religious traditions developed over centuries, without sacrifice. The Orthodox Christians, especially our neighbors, despite us. I see no logic to remain Orthodox and be rarely differed from our neighbors than ending the Schism and revert to Catholicism but with great benefits such as recognition, monetary aid, support of 1 billion Catholics world-wide, etc.

    Some historical precedents:

    The Fall of Constantinople; it was considered devastating to the Orthodox world as the center of Orthodoxy was subjugated to Islamic suzerainty. On the other hand, it had little impact on the Catholic world. Why? Because the followers split from Rome, thus losing much support from the militarily, politically and economically powerful Western Europe.

    The Wars in Yugoslavia; the Orthodox Serbia tried to create a Greater Serbia at the expense of her Catholic and to a lesser extent, Muslim neighbors. While the Western world intervened mainly on humanitarian grounds, but it cannot be doubted that the Croats and Slovenes being Catholic also had an impact on Western policymakers to whether lend recognition and aid to those countries. Their support of Muslim, while can be questioned, but it was/is politically correct and popular to defend Muslims living in Europe hence their support of Bosniaks and Albanians.
  • Zarni
    Banned
    • May 2011
    • 672

    #2
    Krivan I hope the Macedonians remain the last Orthodox Christians in Europe we dont need anyone but ourselves

    Ask the Coptic Christians and African Catholic Community how they feel about Rome

    Macedonian Orthodox Forever and to the end of time

    Comment

    • Zarni
      Banned
      • May 2011
      • 672

      #3
      The Wars in Yugoslavia; the Orthodox Serbia tried to create a Greater Serbia at the expense of her Catholic and to a lesser extent, Muslim neighbors. While the Western world intervened mainly on humanitarian grounds,
      Not all true it is not as back and white as that but like all Myths propagated by the West it is going to stick for a long time

      Comment

      • Coolski
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 747

        #4
        Did a Macedonian leader propose this in the past (several centuries ago)?
        - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
        - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          #5
          orthodox is part of our religion as well with our macedonian identity.It doesn't auger well to become catholics.
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #6
            Much of Macedonia was under the jurisdiction of the Archbishopric of Ohrid between the 10-18th centuries, which often cooperated with both western and eastern churches, while maintaining an autocephalous status throughout most of its history. The legacy of the Archbishopric of Ohrid survives in the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Macedonians don't need Rome, Constantinople or any other church if their recognition and acceptance of our people as Orthodox Christians is not genuine and forthcoming.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Komita
              Member
              • May 2009
              • 243

              #7
              So you know better than our saints?

              "It is impossible to recall peace without dissolving the cause of the schism— the primacy of the Pope exalting himself equal to God."

              "The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics... we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do."

              "We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us." - Saint Mark of Ephesus
              Слава му на Бога за се

              Comment

              • DraganOfStip
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2011
                • 1253

                #8
                Krivan,you can only post your own opinion on this matter.However,most of the Macedonians (including myself) will never accept Catholicism,even if they're imposed with it.Our nation have always been Orthodox Christians,even in Ottoman times when Islam was highly propagated,and even imposed by force,they kept their beliefs and held out.So I can't see why after suffering great ordeal because of their faith they would just willingly give it up, having it for centuries.Why do you need recognition?Do you not still go to the same church,do the same Christian ceremonies and believe in your religion?How would a recognition change all that?You would still do the very same things,with or without recognition,will you not?If you have doubts about your religion,that's an entirely different matter.Just as an example:If Catholics and Orthodox join in ONE religion,what would it be called?Surely Catholics won't accept Orthodox customs and vice versa,so it'll have to be a mixture of customs.I find such thing unlikely.Stick to your beliefs and your faith in God,your heart doesn't need recognition from anyone.
                ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                ― George Orwell

                Comment

                • Zarni
                  Banned
                  • May 2011
                  • 672

                  #9
                  How many are familiar with Catholic Church rituals and ceremonies many are different but if you sit and observe they are all loaned shorted adaptations of Orthodox Christian rights

                  Catholics are all show with no substance

                  Comment

                  • Brian
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 1130

                    #10
                    I'm not particularly upto date with religion so there may be an obvious answer/reason to my question that I'm not aware of, but, why does the MOC need to be aligned with any church? - I mean

                    Who cares if the other Orthodox churches do or don't recognise/like us?

                    What significance is it to the MO believers if the other Orthodox churches don't recognise us? If nothing, then what's the fuss?

                    Why do you see a need to allie ourselves with the Catholics just because the other Orthodox churches don't recognise us? Are the priest so hard up for an invite to a party that if the other Orthodox churches don't like them they have to run and join the Catholics?

                    I don't believe your assertion that if we join the Catholics it will be at NO expense to our beliefs or traditions. Why do you say this - you can join the Catholics and still do your non-Catholic ways? I don't know much about Anglicans but it seems like a nonsensical example because don't they do much the same things as the Catholics anyway? How are we comparable?

                    Why would they help us if we joined the Catholics - are we supposed to pay dues to them? Nothing comes from nothing, so if they're going to provide 'help', as you say, then what are we going to pay for that help?

                    You might want to re-think this idea.
                    Last edited by Brian; 03-03-2012, 10:33 AM.

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      #11
                      We should stay as we are & not seek approval from anyone .Others will not recognise us if it's not in their interests.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Komita View Post
                        So you know better than our saints?

                        "It is impossible to recall peace without dissolving the cause of the schism— the primacy of the Pope exalting himself equal to God."

                        "The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics... we did not separate from them for any other reason other than the fact that they are heretics. This is precisely why we must not unite with them unless they dismiss the addition from the Creed filioque and confess the Creed as we do."

                        "We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us." - Saint Mark of Ephesus
                        .... and ... for the benefit of completion .... they stopped sending money to Constantinople.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          #13
                          I'd much prefer if the Macedonian Orthodox Church recognises the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Don't really care about anyone else.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Trajkovski
                            Junior Member
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 8

                            #14
                            We don't owe anything to anybody, if anyone has a problem, they can deal with it

                            Who cares if we are not in communion with Greeks or Catholics, they have done everything possible to erase our history

                            Why do we always need to seek approval from other churches/nations when they have treated us so unlike Christian brothers

                            Comment

                            • Zarni
                              Banned
                              • May 2011
                              • 672

                              #15
                              Christianity came to Europe through Macedonia and the Macedonians not Greece and the Greeks

                              So why should Macedonians lower themselves we were living in the stars when Europe was still believing in the Earth and Fire Gods

                              Comment

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