Questions on the lack of pro-activity of the Macedonian Diaspora

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    Questions on the lack of pro-activity of the Macedonian Diaspora

    I asked this question on another topic and figured it needed its own.

    Why isn't the Macedonian Diaspora pro-active worldwide?
    How can this be rectified?
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    #2
    Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
    I asked this question on another topic and figured it needed its own.

    Why isn't the Macedonian Diaspora pro-active worldwide?
    How can this be rectified?
    Diasporas which are strong and active have strong states with clear nationalist (patriotic) ideologies to inspire them, e.g. Israel, Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Turkey, China, etc., or are stateless and and have "IC" legitimacy and support for imperialist strategic interests, e.g. Tibetans, whereas Macedonians have neither of these factors. In fact the (Ramkovist) state (RoM) is not a national one, one of few "multi-ethnic" monstrosities created by imperialist interests, and its ideological transmissions work against patriotic Macedonian activism and "IC" works to deconstruct (exterminate) the Macedonian identity (nation).

    Secondly, the Macedonian Diaspora (and the Macedonians in the homeland) is not up to the task of raising a resistance movement that can challenge and reverse the enacted and planned deconstruction and extermination campaigns by their many enemies and internal traitors.

    Lastly, the Macedonian Diaspora is its own worst enemy and only knows how to follow those who are seemingly in official power, be they Gov of RM or Church hierarchy, and "IC" plans for EU and NATO "integration". "UMD" is a perfect example of this.
    Last edited by indigen; 03-05-2010, 07:07 PM.

    Comment

    • TrueMacedonian
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 3810

      #3
      Originally posted by indigen View Post
      Diasporas which are strong and active have strong states with clear nationalist (patriotic) ideologies to inspire them, e.g. Israel, Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Turkey, China, etc., or are stateless and and have "IC" legitimacy and support for imperialist strategic interests, e.g. Tibetans, whereas Macedonians have neither of these factors. In fact the (Ramkovist) state (RoM) is not a national one, one of few "multi-ethic" monstrosities created by imperialist interests, and its ideological transmissions work against patriotic Macedonian activism and "IC" works to deconstruct (exterminate) the Macedonian identity (nation).

      Secondly, the Macedonian Diaspora (and the Macedonians in the homeland) is not up to the task of raising a resistance movement that can challenge and reverse the enacted and planned deconstruction and extermination campaigns by their many enemies and internal traitors.

      Lastly, the Macedonian Diaspora is its own worst enemy and only knows how to follow those who are seemingly in official power, be they Gov of RM or Church hierarchy, and "IC" plans for EU and NATO "integration". "UMD" is a perfect example of this.
      Thank you for giving me a why. But you didn't try and give the how. It sounds a little like you're a defeatist and have accepted this stark reality and view it as "well it's out of reach to achieve". I do applaud you for your honesty though. We need to be honest in order to tackle this issue and effectively garner more and more support for a stronger diaspora.
      Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

      Comment

      • aleksandrov
        Member
        • Feb 2010
        • 558

        #4
        You might get more meaningful answers if you define what you mean by "Macedonian Diaspora" (is it a real unit or an idealized one, for example?) and what you presume it (or its parts) is not proactive at.

        I would suggest that if it wasn't for Macedonian activism abroad, the Macedonian independent state probably would not have been formed at all, and many of the concepts that the current Government of Macedonia is basing its marketing on would still be as marginal in Macedonia as they were in the days of Yugoslavia, or at least of the Gligorov/Crvenkovski and to a lesser extent Georgievski/Trajkovski regimes. If we didn't have to struggle as much against our own vassals and cheap opportunist sellouts as we do against foreign hostility, you might well be able to SEE a lot more proactivity from Macedonians abroad. The harder the battle, the lower the number of fighters willing to persist against the odds.
        Last edited by aleksandrov; 03-05-2010, 06:45 PM.
        All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

        https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

        Comment

        • TrueMacedonian
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 3810

          #5
          Originally posted by aleksandrov View Post
          You might get more meaningful answers if you define what you mean by "Macedonian Diaspora" (is it a real unit or an idealized one, for example?) and what you presume it (or its parts) is not proactive at.

          I would suggest that if it wasn't for Macedonian activism abroad, the Macedonian independent state probably would not have been formed at all, and many of the concepts that the current Government of Macedonia is basing its marketing on would still be as marginal in Macedonia as they were in the days of Yugoslavia, or at least of the Gligorov/Crvenkovski and to a lesser extent Georgievski/Trajkovski regimes.
          What I mean by a Macedonian Diaspora is people who are ethnically Macedonian who live in developed countries like Australia, Canada, and the US for example (and euro countries like Italy, Sweden, and Germany) who are not pro-active in their diaspora communities. Meaning that tomorrow if the US or Canada reversed their recognition of Macedonia I highly doubt that there would be a large number of people protesting and taking it to the streets.
          I wish that Macedonians in the US and Canada would be more pro-active and protest in front of the Australian embassies in our countries and ask them to recognize Macedonia and their Macedonian minority. There seems to be too many missing links in this diaspora for some reason and I think that there needs to be alot of questions (more than what I asked) brought to the table and answered as best as they can in order to figure out how one Macedonian in Australia can lend that support to a Macedonian in the US or in Italy. This is what I mean.
          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

          Comment

          • indigen
            Senior Member
            • May 2009
            • 1558

            #6
            Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
            Thank you for giving me a why. But you didn't try and give the how.
            First things first, if one does not know the WHY, they will NEVER know the HOW! :-)

            Before I will ever try to give a HOW solution, I need to know you and the rest understand the WHY (why we are up shit creek without a paddle!). Please enlighten us about the why from your perspective.

            It sounds a little like you're a defeatist and have accepted this stark reality and view it as "well it's out of reach to achieve".
            Being a "defeatist" and saying it how it is are NOT one and the same thing, IME.

            FYI: I reject ALL sellout deals and capitulations and do not support traitors, capitulationists, sellouts and their hangers on. Can you say the same and how do you equate that with "defeatist"?

            You might like to read the following, too:




            Lastly, are the following statements yours?

            “....I stated that I don’t personally care if the Macedonians had any cultural ties to the ancients. If they do then it’s small...”

            “....Look here mymoon I don’t care about the biological connections to the ancients. I gave you objective scholars that stated that the Slavs mixed with the ‘indigenous peoples’ of the Balkans....”

            “....Which Government official stated that we have a biological relationship with the ancient Macedonians by the way?.....”

            “...Actually readers I am a mod for Maknews.com....”
            Last edited by indigen; 03-08-2010, 01:04 AM.

            Comment

            • sf.
              Member
              • Jan 2010
              • 387

              #7
              You can add one more reason why people in the diaspora do not want to get more actively involved. Attempts for rational discourse and activism often get misinterpreted, suspected and overblown into all-out antagonism, accusations and divisions.
              Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

              Comment

              • Rogi
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 2343

                #8
                Well, sf.,

                If I am working on building a bridge, and you are working on building a house, then we are clearly not working on the same thing, even though we both may be 'builders'.

                So first of all, we need to be building the same thing, so that we can work together and get it built.

                I trust you understand the analogy.

                Comment

                • sf.
                  Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 387

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                  Well, sf.,

                  If I am working on building a bridge, and you are working on building a house, then we are clearly not working on the same thing, even though we both may be 'builders'.

                  So first of all, we need to be building the same thing, so that we can work together and get it built.

                  I trust you understand the analogy.
                  That's not the problem here. We all want to build the house but can't agree on the tools to be used. What's worse is that everyone is an 'expert' who has the right approach, if not the right experience or training.

                  I was specifically referring to the post above mine and the unwarranted attack against an innocent question, based on the misinterpretation of a phrase. Here indigen defended himself against a non-existent inference, and then prepared an attack to imply that in fact TM holds treacherous views.
                  Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3810

                    #10
                    indi wrote;
                    Before I will ever try to give a HOW solution, I need to know you and the rest understand the WHY (why we are up shit creek without a paddle!). Please enlighten us about the why from your perspective.
                    Alot of things factor in as to why we are in this mess today. Megali Idea, rival church propagandas in the 19th and 20th centuries, Germany not recognizing Macedonia in the early 90's, corrupt government, and the list goes on and on.

                    Being a "defeatist" and saying it how it is are NOT one and the same thing, IME.
                    Yes but in view of your post you seem to accept a reality instead of work to change it. Which is why I called you a defeatist.

                    FYI: I reject ALL sellout deals and capitulations and do not support traitors, capitulationists, sellouts and their hangers on. Can you say the same and how do you equate that with "defeatist"?
                    Sure I can. I think that this current government is the best government Macedonia has ever got. But Macedonia can do much better. And for her sake I hope the citizens do better by electing politicians who want backstab their country and our identity.

                    Lastly, are the following statements yours?


                    Quote:
                    “....I stated that I don’t personally care if the Macedonians had any cultural ties to the ancients. If they do then it’s small...”

                    “....Look here mymoon I don’t care about the biological connections to the ancients. I gave you objective scholars that stated that the Slavs mixed with the ‘indigenous peoples’ of the Balkans....”

                    “....Which Government official stated that we have a biological relationship with the ancient Macedonians by the way?.....”

                    “...Actually readers I am a mod for Maknews.com....”
                    It sure is. And while you're at it why not post the entire dialogue - http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.ne...8dec6a3171cf2# so everyone can read from beginning to end what was said. I don't have anything to hide concerning my beliefs and opinions. Once someone at Maknews stated that "if Goce Delchev ever saw the Macedonian flag next to the Turkish flag he would be disappointed" and to this I said that's just bullshit. Goce Delchev would not be disappointed because he wouldn't even know what the Macedonian flag would like because he's dead. Reality > Imaginary or Imaginary < Reality???
                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • Pelister
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 2742

                      #11
                      Here is what the diaspora should be doing.

                      Everyone must read this. Its a letter from the MTO.

                      The Macedonian Truth Organisation (MTO) thanks the European Parliament for taking the time to consider issues affecting Macedonia and the possibility of joining the European Union in the European Parliament resolution of 10 February 2010 on the 2009 progress report on Macedonia. We accept the prospect of EU membership has


                      We need to understand something. Our leaders are just people. They are not "experts". Most of the people on here would have a better grasp of our history than our leaders, and they cannot be expected to know everything.

                      Objecting "in principle" to the clauses, pushes and prods and threats as well as the terms of reference that Western institutions, Western structures have set against the Macedonian people - is what is required, and the Macedonian government need to know that there are Macedonians who know how to take a stand, and know how to take on the BIG powers.

                      Article 2(4) of the U.N Charter precludes the dismemberment of the territorial Integrity of any State including the aggressor - so the law basically favors "The Aggressor". Its designed to end wars - not seek out justice. There is no justice for the Macedonians. Since 1919, the principle of the right to self-determination has never been applied by Europe to the Macedonians. Europe set out to decolonize Macedonia. Now its trying to break up the only thing we have going for us - our own free State.

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3810

                        #12
                        Why are the Diaspora organizations absent from this topic? If anything I imagine that they would supply us with the best answers to the original questions asked on the 1st post.
                        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                        Comment

                        • TrueMacedonian
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3810

                          #13
                          UMD, AHMRC, Aleksandrov, any other diaspora groups,,,, why do you think there is a lack of pro-activity in the Macedonian diaspora? What is the consensus of how to enlighten young Macedonians into taking a more active role for their community?
                          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                          Comment

                          • Silver
                            Junior Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 85

                            #14
                            Originally posted by indigen View Post
                            Diasporas which are strong and active have strong states with clear nationalist (patriotic) ideologies to inspire them, e.g. Israel, Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Turkey, China, etc., or are stateless and and have "IC" legitimacy and support for imperialist strategic interests, e.g. Tibetans, whereas Macedonians have neither of these factors.
                            This was a brilliant reply so what else would satisfy your curious question?

                            Why don't you tell us what you think will change things for the better? Maybe Mr. Buktop will be here soon to tell us all the great things UMD can do for us.

                            In Canada the United Macedonians Organization as well as our churches have done alot to unite the community into a much stronger and cohesive one. The Australian Community is very strong as well. Tell us what positive things are going on in the U.S. of A (I take it you're an American).

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3810

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Silver View Post
                              This was a brilliant reply so what else would satisfy your curious question?

                              Why don't you tell us what you think will change things for the better? Maybe Mr. Buktop will be here soon to tell us all the great things UMD can do for us.

                              In Canada the United Macedonians Organization as well as our churches have done alot to unite the community into a much stronger and cohesive one. The Australian Community is very strong as well. Tell us what positive things are going on in the U.S. of A (I take it you're an American).
                              I want to make one point very clear from the get go so we can all understand each other. This is not about whos backyard is bigger and why. It's about the diaspora and its supposed large number of pro-active peoples. So no need to give me a run-down on UMD and throwing another members name on them, no need to give me your opinion on the Australian community having a strong diaspora, and no need to tell me about the United Macedonians - I know a few people involved with them.

                              I notice that there's still a dividing line Silver. Is it possible to look beyond regional things in order to come to a common concensus (or close to one) so we can finally do something instead of sitting here counting the days for the next trip to Macedonia?

                              Indigen gave a good answer to the question. But he is only one member that did. I notice many of the other members, and diaspora groups, avoiding this topic or who have not answered. Hopefully someone will chime in. This topic is not about fighting and bickering. It's about why there is no pro-activity amongst the greater majority of Macedonians in the Macedonian diaspora.

                              I'll pose a new question to you all seeing as the first two are hard for some to answer (I'll answer those myself in the next post).

                              How can someone in the Macedonian diaspora in the US or Canada or wherever else help the Macedonians in Australia get their government to recognize the Republic of Macedonia?
                              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

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