Hesiod's Myth

[Philosopher]

Even a perfunctory glance at modern Greek claims on the "Greekness" of the ancient Macedonians is exposed as myths, lies, fabrications, and nonesense.

Modern Greeks start with the Greekness of the ancient Macedonians by suggesting that "Alexander the Great claimed to have been descended of a Greek god"; or "Alexander the I proved his Greek descent to enter the Olympic Games"; thus, this proves the Macedonians are "Greeks."

But, if we are going to be using myths as evidence, shall we not also turn to another myth?

Hesiod records "And she, Deucalion's daughter, of Zeus, the Thunder, bore two sons: Magnet and Macedon--a cavalryman, a warrior...The second Deucalion's daughter bore two sons as well: Graecian and Latin...

If we argue that Zeus impregnated both daughters, then that would mean that Macedon, Graecian, and Latins are half-brothers; if we argue that Zeus copulated with one daughter, then Graceians and Latins are only cousins of Macedon.

The question is: who copulated with the second daughter? Another god? If the story assumes that no males survived, other than the father, than it would have to be another god. Yet, this god might not have been the chief god, Zeus.

Moreover, under this secenario it is not improbable to argue that Macedonians descend from a god; but, this also means that Macedonians are not Graecians.

If Macedonians are Graecians, because they are cousins or half-brothers, than Latins and Magnets are as well? And yet, we don't see Greeks claiming Latins to be Greeks, do we?

If Latins are brothers with Graecians, and yet both nations speak a different language, and in fact are two nations, how can the Macedons be a Graecian tribe?

Why is it that at the time in which Hesiod wrote his myth, he believe that the Macedons, like the Latins, were a separate, albeit related, nation with a separate language?

The only reason he would have thought this, at this early period of time, is if it was indeed true.

Macedonians, although related to Graecians and Latins, as tests indicate, are a separate nation with a separate language. Until someone else proves this otherwise, the myth is yet more proof of the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians.

[osiris]

good questions and a greta post man, but i have to admit it ws me who,

The question is: who copulated with the second daughter? Another god? If the story assumes that no males survived, other than the father, than it would have to be another god. Yet, this god might not have been the chief god, Zeus.

[Pelister]

Macedonians, although related to Graecians and Latins, as tests indicate, are a separate nation with a separate language. Until someone else proves this otherwise, the myth is yet more proof of the non-Greekness of the ancient Macedonians.

That it is.
Nice post. Good question.

[Pelister]

It never occurred to me to ask the question "Who copulated with the second daughter"?

[Risto the Great]

It never occurred to me to ask the question "Who copulated with the second daughter"?

I think I saw it in a movie Osiris got me from Canberra ... but I can't remember right now.

[Pelister]

I think I saw it in a movie Osiris got me from Canberra ... but I can't remember right now.

HAHA. Canberra has a bit of a reputation for providing that.

[Sweet Sixteen]

The question is: who copulated with the second daughter? Another god? If the story assumes that no males survived, other than the father, than it would have to be another god. Yet, this god might not have been the chief god, Zeus.

According to Hesiod, that was Zeus again.

If Macedonians are Graecians, because they are cousins or half-brothers, than Latins and Magnets are as well? And yet, we don't see Greeks claiming Latins to be Greeks, do we?

If Latins are brothers with Graecians, and yet both nations speak a different language, and in fact are two nations, how can the Macedons be a Graecian tribe?

Why is it that at the time in which Hesiod wrote his myth, he believe that the Macedons, like the Latins, were a separate, albeit related, nation with a separate language?

Graecus is not the progenitor of Greeks, but of Graecians/ Graeci (the Greeks of Italy). The alleged progenitor of Greeks is Hellen (son of Deucalion).

[Carlin]

But, if we are going to be using myths as evidence, shall we not also turn to another myth?

Page 224 -- Rethinking the Other in Antiquity, Erich S. Gruen:

Foundation Tales as Cultural Thievery.

Celebrated characters from legend could serve as founders of foreign nations. Or, more inventively, fictive tales ascribed names derived from extant peoples to fabricated figures who became those peoples' progenitors. The Hellenic penchant for peering through parochial spectacles is well known. Alien nations became transformed and familiar when fitted into Greek traditions.

That held true even for the supposed archenemy, Persia. According to Herodotus, the Hellenic hero Perseus wed his rescued damsel Andromeda whose son by him was named Perses. And from him the Persians took their own name. So Herodotus (or rather his sources). The story is a noteworthy one. The most inveterate foe of Hellas thus came within the Hellenic embrace. Greeks slipped one of their most celebrated legendary figures into a fictitious narrative of Persian history, thus to account for the very name of the people.

That fable, in its many manifestations, may be the most dramatic instance of identity theft. But far from the only one. Another tradition took this maneuver a step further. The ruling house of Persia carried the designation of Achaemenids. That played nicely into the hands of Greek fashioners of legend. They concocted an Achaemenes as founder of the dynasty, made him a son of Perseus, and explained his name as derived from his grandfather, who came from Achaea in the Peloponnese. So even prime villains of the Greek master narrative, the Achaemenid clan and the Persian empire, turn out to be Greek in origin. That is appropriation indeed.

If Persians could be hellenized, anyone was fair game.

The Greeks had no monopoly on this sort of "identity theft." Egyptians employed the same form of imaginary lineage that attached foreign cultures to themselves. Egyptian mythology that made its way to Diodorus of Sicily included a tale of the wanderings of Osiris, most venerable and sacred of the nation's deities. The story has Osiris venture across the Hellespont to Thrace and beyond. In the course of his travels he left behind a son named Macedon as ruler of a land that was henceforth to be known as Macedonia. And, for good measure, he behind another son, now aged, who would oversee the cultivation of plants in Thrace and found a city there, duly to be designed as Maroneia.

Macedonians may have installed an alien dynasty on the Egyptians' land -- But, on this concoction, Macedonia itself owed its origin to an Egyptian dynasty.

[George S.]

leo martis wrote a book when he was minster of northern Greece..$00 years of greek history ,& Macedonia is greek.How is it possible that when you have been 3000 or so years on the greek peninsular,you can lie & stretch it out to 4000 years.When the greeks arrived on the greek peninsular they found their neighbours were already there..THe Macedonians had their own mother tounge Macedonian of which was not understood by the greeks.THe royals were the only ones educated in greek,speaking greek doesn't make you greek.The royals spoke greek for commerce reasons.The normal Macedonians & royalty house had their own vernacular the Macedonian.The army preferred to speak Macedonian rather than greekAlexanders army was not greek but a Macedonian one.
If Macedonians & greeks were the same people why did alexander leave heavily armed garrisons around Greece.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Page 224 -- Rethinking the Other in Antiquity, Erich S. Gruen:

Foundation Tales as Cultural Thievery.

Celebrated characters from legend could serve as founders of foreign nations. Or, more inventively, fictive tales ascribed names derived from extant peoples to fabricated figures who became those peoples' progenitors. The Hellenic penchant for peering through parochial spectacles is well known. Alien nations became transformed and familiar when fitted into Greek traditions.

That held true even for the supposed archenemy, Persia. According to Herodotus, the Hellenic hero Perseus wed his rescued damsel Andromeda whose son by him was named Perses. And from him the Persians took their own name. So Herodotus (or rather his sources). The story is a noteworthy one. The most inveterate foe of Hellas thus came within the Hellenic embrace. Greeks slipped one of their most celebrated legendary figures into a fictitious narrative of Persian history, thus to account for the very name of the people.

That fable, in its many manifestations, may be the most dramatic instance of identity theft. But far from the only one. Another tradition took this maneuver a step further. The ruling house of Persia carried the designation of Achaemenids. That played nicely into the hands of Greek fashioners of legend. They concocted an Achaemenes as founder of the dynasty, made him a son of Perseus, and explained his name as derived from his grandfather, who came from Achaea in the Peloponnese. So even prime villains of the Greek master narrative, the Achaemenid clan and the Persian empire, turn out to be Greek in origin. That is appropriation indeed.

If Persians could be hellenized, anyone was fair game.

The Greeks had no monopoly on this sort of "identity theft." Egyptians employed the same form of imaginary lineage that attached foreign cultures to themselves. Egyptian mythology that made its way to Diodorus of Sicily included a tale of the wanderings of Osiris, most venerable and sacred of the nation's deities. The story has Osiris venture across the Hellespont to Thrace and beyond. In the course of his travels he left behind a son named Macedon as ruler of a land that was henceforth to be known as Macedonia. And, for good measure, he behind another son, now aged, who would oversee the cultivation of plants in Thrace and found a city there, duly to be designed as Maroneia.

Macedonians may have installed an alien dynasty on the Egyptians' land -- But, on this concoction, Macedonia itself owed its origin to an Egyptian dynasty.

Further to the above, there were the stories about Romans descending from Trojans, and Scythians descending from Heracles. This sort of myth-making and self-glorification was not uncommon during antiquity.