Archaeology of the Ancient World

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Archaeology of the Ancient World

    Go for it Afterhours. Let's see some archaeology with ancient Hellenic inscriptions, I will contribute too, this way we can show the readers that the same script and even language was used by several other non-Hellenes in addition to the Macedonians, such as Thracians, Illyrians, Paeonians, etc.

    Perhaps we can discuss why such inscriptions appear in Macedonia, Thrace and Illyria some centuries after they appear in Hellenic territory.

    Perhaps we may be able to answer some questions like, what if it was a Cleitus from Illyria or an Ariston from Paeonia that led the invasion into Asia? Do you think they would not have used the script and language we are discussing at the moment?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
  • afterhours
    Banned
    • Sep 2009
    • 117

    #2
    That all depends Soldier of Macedon, as I am unaware of the Illyrians and Paeonians speaking a form of the Greek language (outside of those who had been Hellenized). What both ancient and modern historians tell us about the ancient Maks on the other hand is a somewhat different story.

    I'll start off with a couple of links from the Metropolitan Museum of Art and hopefully we can go from there!

    Hellenistic kings became prominent patrons of the arts, commissioning public works of architecture and sculpture, as well as private luxury items that demonstrated their wealth and taste.


    Head of a Ptolemaic queen, Hellenistic, ca. 270–250 b.c.

    Greek
    Marble

    This monumental head gives an impression of sovereign calm and power, even though the veil that once covered the top and back of the head is missing. Although the features are cast in a classical style typical of the late fourth century B.C., the face is sufficiently individualized to identify it as a portrait. The head is almost perfectly preserved. It was originally prepared as a separate piece for insertion in a statue. Marble at the summit and back of the head is roughly worked and would have been concealed by a veil constructed of marble or stucco.

    It probably represents a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty—the succession of Macedonian Greeks who ruled Egypt from the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. until the annexation of Egypt by Rome and the suicide of Cleopatra in 30 B.C. Recently it has been identified as the head of Arsinoë II, who ruled with her brother, Ptolemy II, from 278 B.C. until her death in 270 B.C. The queen was part of a dynastic ruler cult during her life. And, after her death, her brother made her an independent deity. She was worshipped as an Egyptian goddess in association with Isis and also as a Greek goddess, with her own sanctuaries and festivals. This strongly idealized head, which resembles classical images of Hera and Demeter, was probably associated with that cult. It presents the queen in a highly idealized manner based on the refined classical style developed in Greece during the fourth century B.C.

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    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #3
      Originally posted by Afterhours
      I am unaware of the Illyrians and Paeonians speaking a form of the Greek language
      Are you implying that Illyrians, Thracians and Paeonians used a language for commerce and administration that their own upper classes did not understand?

      What do you mean by Hellenized? Please specify the period of time you are talking about.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • afterhours
        Banned
        • Sep 2009
        • 117

        #4
        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        Are you implying that Illyrians, Thracians and Paeonians used a language for commerce and administration that their own upper classes did not understand?
        I'm implying that the Illyrians, Thracians, and Paeonians did not speak a form of the Greek language, generally speaking.

        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        What do you mean by Hellenized? Please specify the period of time you are talking about.
        Various peoples were Hellenized in different eras at different time periods. The Illyrians (some not all), the closer they came into contact with Greek colonies and sanctuaries (Dodona), and the same goes for the Thracians, as early as the 8th century BCE, and quite possibly before.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #5
          Originally posted by Afterhours
          I'm implying that the Illyrians, Thracians, and Paeonians did not speak a form of the Greek language, generally speaking
          And the Macedonians did? Hhmm, didn't take you long to open up that path for discussion now did it......

          I notice that you fail to cite the Hellenic colonies in Macedonia. Why?
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #6
            Originally posted by Afterhours
            .....as early as the 8th century BCE, and quite possibly before
            As early as the 8th? Probably, show us some archaeological evidence. Before the 8th? I don't think so, you can't even demonstrate Hellenic inscriptions in the Phoenician script prior to that period, how are you going to show their colonies?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #7
              Illyricum chapter of Barclay Head's Historia Numorum

              Monunius, circ. B.C. 300 or 280, king of the Dardanian Illyrians. He occupied Dyrrhachium and struck money there of the Dyrrhachian type.


              Dyrrhachium is in Illyria, surely there would have been local Illyrians already present in the area when the Hellenic colony was first established, and that is why it is called a colony, because it is away from the so-called 'motherland'. So, why did Monunius do that? There was an Illyrian language too, why not use it for administrative and commercial purposes such as striking coins?
              Originally posted by Afterhours
              The Illyrians (some not all), the closer they came into contact with Greek colonies........
              Hellenes colonised the place in the 7th century BC, but Mononius lived during the 3rd century BC. Were the Illyrians, who are neighbours of the Hellenes and had Hellenic colonies in their land, immune to the so-called 'Hellenization' while places further away received their 'enlightenment' earlier? Explain your logic to me.

              Don't view an ancient matter from a modern perspective, the common masses of people in the region were not nearly as educated as we are today. Furthermore, it is an indisputable fact that the Hellenic language and the adopted Phoenician script were used by non-Hellenes in the greater region and beyond for the purposes outlined above.

              The Thracians fall in the same basket, however, their's is an even more interesting case, as inscriptions in the adopted Phoenician script survive from the 6th century. Nevertheless, they still use the language of the Hellenes for the same reasons as the Illyrians do. Why?

              Since 2005, we have helped thousands of people get the perfect domain name.

              The Edoni were a Macedonian tribe most likely located along the Strymon river, in the area of Mount Pangaeus, probably near the location of Amphipolis. Except for his coinage, king Getas is unknown to history. In 437 the Edones were defeated by Athens, after which the Athenians founded the city of Amphipolis............Getas was one of the first Kings to strike coins in his own name, and was the first to call himself BASILEWS on his coinage.




              If you are looking for these types of plastic 'Hellenes', I can show you more.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • afterhours
                Banned
                • Sep 2009
                • 117

                #8
                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                And the Macedonians did? Hhmm, didn't take you long to open up that path for discussion now did it......

                I notice that you fail to cite the Hellenic colonies in Macedonia. Why?
                You mean the Athenian colonies in Macedonia?

                Whether the ancient Maks spoke Greek, or a form of Greek, as their mother tongue is a matter of debate. We know for a fact that by the 5th century BC, Attic Greek had become the standard within the Royal House. Do you dispute this?

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #9
                  Originally posted by afterhours View Post
                  You mean the Athenian colonies in Macedonia?

                  Whether the ancient Maks spoke Greek, or a form of Greek, as their mother tongue is a matter of debate. We know for a fact that by the 5th century BC, Attic Greek had become the standard within the Royal House. Do you dispute this?
                  Could you please enlighten us of what term the ancients used in reference to the "Greek" language at the time. What word did they use in their native tongue?
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

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                  • afterhours
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 117

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    As early as the 8th? Probably, show us some archaeological evidence. Before the 8th? I don't think so, you can't even demonstrate Hellenic inscriptions in the Phoenician script prior to that period, how are you going to show their colonies?
                    The earliest Greek inscriptions in Epirus date to about the 6th century BC, however, the oracle at Dodona dates much earlier.

                    Comment

                    • afterhours
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 117

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/illyricum.html
                      Monunius, circ. B.C. 300 or 280, king of the Dardanian Illyrians. He occupied Dyrrhachium and struck money there of the Dyrrhachian type.


                      Dyrrhachium is in Illyria, surely there would have been local Illyrians already present in the area when the Hellenic colony was first established, and that is why it is called a colony, because it is away from the so-called 'motherland'. So, why did Monunius do that? There was an Illyrian language too, why not use it for administrative and commercial purposes such as striking coins?

                      Hellenes colonised the place in the 7th century BC, but Mononius lived during the 3rd century BC. Were the Illyrians, who are neighbours of the Hellenes and had Hellenic colonies in their land, immune to the so-called 'Hellenization' while places further away received their 'enlightenment' earlier? Explain your logic to me.
                      Aside from Greek colonization in southern Illyria, the Greek presence in Epirus was well established. Is it your belief that the Molossians were not a Greek tribe?

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Don't view an ancient matter from a modern perspective, the common masses of people in the region were not nearly as educated as we are today. Furthermore, it is an indisputable fact that the Hellenic language and the adopted Phoenician script were used by non-Hellenes in the greater region and beyond for the purposes outlined above.
                      So when was the Hellenic language used as a lingua franca? And by whom?

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      The Thracians fall in the same basket, however, their's is an even more interesting case, as inscriptions in the adopted Phoenician script survive from the 6th century. Nevertheless, they still use the language of the Hellenes for the same reasons as the Illyrians do. Why?
                      It is common knowledge that the Thracians spoke a language that was not of Greek origin. Can the same be said for the ancient Maks?

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Since 2005, we have helped thousands of people get the perfect domain name.

                      The Edoni were a Macedonian tribe most likely located along the Strymon river, in the area of Mount Pangaeus, probably near the location of Amphipolis. Except for his coinage, king Getas is unknown to history. In 437 the Edones were defeated by Athens, after which the Athenians founded the city of Amphipolis............Getas was one of the first Kings to strike coins in his own name, and was the first to call himself BASILEWS on his coinage.
                      I was under the impression that the Edoni were a Thracian tribe. This is the first time I'm hearing that they were Macedonians. I thought the Macedonians drove them out of Macedonia.


                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      If you are looking for these types of plastic 'Hellenes', I can show you more.

                      By all means!

                      Comment

                      • makedonin
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 1668

                        #12
                        Originally posted by afterhours View Post
                        You mean the Athenian colonies in Macedonia?

                        Whether the ancient Maks spoke Greek, or a form of Greek, as their mother tongue is a matter of debate. We know for a fact that by the 5th century BC, Attic Greek had become the standard within the Royal House. Do you dispute this?
                        If Ancient Macedonians did spoke some Greek dialect, why not using it in the Royal House instead of importing some Attic dialect?

                        The mare adoption indicates that they are adopting it for commerce or equivalent.
                        To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                        Comment

                        • afterhours
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 117

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                          Could you please enlighten us of what term the ancients used in reference to the "Greek" language at the time. What word did they use in their native tongue?

                          Ellene....btw, why do you put Greek in quotation marks?

                          Comment

                          • Daskalot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4345

                            #14
                            Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                            If Ancient Macedonians did spoke some Greek dialect, why not using it in the Royal House instead of importing some Attic dialect?

                            The mare adoption indicates that they are adopting it for commerce or equivalent.
                            A most valid point Makedonin, why would they import a dialect if they already had their own? Was Attic more poetic?
                            Macedonian Truth Organisation

                            Comment

                            • makedonin
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1668

                              #15
                              The definition of Koine:

                              koine [ˈkɔɪniː]
                              n
                              (Linguistics) a common language among speakers of different languages; lingua franca
                              [from Greek koinē dialektos common language]

                              Definition, Synonyms, Translations of koine by The Free Dictionary
                              To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

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