What do you guys think?

[Spartan]

What are your guys thoughts of this statement??
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated.

No nation is homogenous. Every part of the world experienced different migrations, settlements, etc. The Slavs integrated with the Ancient Macedonians resulting in today's Macedonian population.

"Over the past two thousand three hundred years or so, the Balkan peninsula has been invaded by hordes of newcomers, including Celts (third to first century B.C.), Germanic tribes ( third century A.D.), Slavs (fifth and sixth century A.D.), and Turks (fourteenth century A.D.).The original peoples were not wiped out, or pushed out of Macedonia or Greece by these new peoples. What happened for the most part was that after a time the new peoples merged with the existing peoples."

"However, there is no evidence to suggest that the people of Macedonia are any less ethnically 'pure' and representative of the ancient peoples, than the Greeks."

The Real Macedonians, Dr. John Shea, as quoted in Panorama - Vol.2 No.1, Macedonian Cultural Society "ISKRA", Adelaide, 1996; p.100

[Soldier of Macedon]

The original peoples were not wiped out, or pushed out of Macedonia or Greece by these new peoples. What happened for the most part was that after a time the new peoples merged with the existing peoples.

I agree with this, my only point of dispute is that there is evidence of cultural and linguistic links of the tribes north and south of the Danube, which would mean that the Slavic invaders were not entirely 'new' and much less 'foreign' than certain historians have been led to believe.

Have you checked how many words in Thracian correspond to Balto-Slavic? This cannot be dismissed.

[Spartan]

No, Ive never checked, but I will take your word for it.
I dont disagree with the statement either.

[Rogi]

Spartan,

That's the official position of the Republic of Macedonia.

That the Macedonians today are the descendants of the Ancient Macedonians, mixed with many others who have settled and occupied Macedonia in the last 2,000 years.

There is no claim of ethnic purity, unlike that of Greece.

[blackcactus]

Apparently this is what occurred in the British Isles, after the many invasions and immigrations (Vikings/Normans) the indigenous populations (Picts/Celts) were still largely intact even though wide spread language and cultural changes did eventually occur due to the invaders

The Vikings and Normans were eventually absorbed into the larger over all population, but due to their relative positions of power left a lasting legacy in changing the language used in Briton forever

This could also be the case anywhere in the Balkans assuming no invader was in such numbers as to overwhelm the indigenous population gene pool

One thing to note is that isolated communities such as mountain villagers are often the last to "convert" to the ways of the invader

A few reasons for this could be

1. Invaders tend to seek the richest parts of an invaded land such as fertile plains and cities for the booty they possess

2. Invading armies tend to use easier paths for transportation that are well stocked in food and resources such as major rivers, roads, coasts, and flat country

3. To secure governance of a land, invaders will target the power centers first, such as major cities and trading centers

4. Once established invaders will settle in the richest parts of that country such as fertile alluvial plains and cities and avoid wasting resources in harsh mountain countries where the climate is harsh, soils are poor, and roads difficult

5. Mountain people can easily "vanish" into the mountains before an invader reaches the villages, then just return when the invader leaves with what little they find, this would be very difficult to achieve for a city dweller

6. Being isolated allows indigenous cultures to remain less influenced by culture and language changes that have occurred in low country and cities due to foreign influences

7. Less intermarriage occurs with the invader and the mountain villager than would occur with the invader and the city dweller due to different levels of contact, thus retaining the indigenous gene pool to a greater extent in mountain communities


In conclusion if you what to look for what the indigenous populations of the Balkans looked like in culture and language, look to the mountains for inspiration, not the flat land and cities, head for the mountains if you wish to find anything rare and endangered, from old cultures to rare plants and animals

Mountains are like time capsules

[Risto the Great]

Spartan, I do not think you will find many Macedonians disagreeing with that. But I also take into account Blackcactus' comment and suggest the mountains & villages of Macedonia had the largest component of peasant Macedonian population. I have always said we should treasure our peasants throughout history in Macedonia as they are the best defense against any attempts to erode the modern Macedonian identity ... (wherever it may have come from).

[Rogi]

I agree about the mountain villages. There's generally no reason for an invader to head to the mountains for a few small villages...

The Ottomans were in Macedonia for 500 years and the villages in the mountainous region of Mariovo were largely left alone by the Ottomans.

[Spartan]

Risto,
I couldnt agree more with Blackactus' post in regards to areas of isolation
Lakonia(the province has only the aegean, and 2 large mountains as borders), is similar to what he explained above,and I can thus relate.

[Pelister]

Apparently this is what occurred in the British Isles, after the many invasions and immigrations (Vikings/Normans) the indigenous populations (Picts/Celts) were still largely intact even though wide spread language and cultural changes did eventually occur due to the invaders

The Vikings and Normans were eventually absorbed into the larger over all population, but due to their relative positions of power left a lasting legacy in changing the language used in Briton forever

This could also be the case anywhere in the Balkans assuming no invader was in such numbers as to overwhelm the indigenous population gene pool

One thing to note is that isolated communities such as mountain villagers are often the last to "convert" to the ways of the invader

A few reasons for this could be

1. Invaders tend to seek the richest parts of an invaded land such as fertile plains and cities for the booty they possess

2. Invading armies tend to use easier paths for transportation that are well stocked in food and resources such as major rivers, roads, coasts, and flat country

3. To secure governance of a land, invaders will target the power centers first, such as major cities and trading centers

4. Once established invaders will settle in the richest parts of that country such as fertile alluvial plains and cities and avoid wasting resources in harsh mountain countries where the climate is harsh, soils are poor, and roads difficult

5. Mountain people can easily "vanish" into the mountains before an invader reaches the villages, then just return when the invader leaves with what little they find, this would be very difficult to achieve for a city dweller

6. Being isolated allows indigenous cultures to remain less influenced by culture and language changes that have occurred in low country and cities due to foreign influences

7. Less intermarriage occurs with the invader and the mountain villager than would occur with the invader and the city dweller due to different levels of contact, thus retaining the indigenous gene pool to a greater extent in mountain communities


In conclusion if you what to look for what the indigenous populations of the Balkans looked like in culture and language, look to the mountains for inspiration, not the flat land and cities, head for the mountains if you wish to find anything rare and endangered, from old cultures to rare plants and animals

Mountains are like time capsules

That is the most interesting thing I've heard anyone say in a while.

What you've said is very true.

It provokes alot of questions, such as why are the topynyms of the most mountainous regions in the balkans, Slavic rather than say Albanian, or Greek or the such? I don't know. But if the discovery of Slavic writing in ancient Macedonia, and the close relationship between Illyrian/Thracian and modern day Slavic is anything to go by, as well as other things, I would say that the Macedonians are speaking the language of Alexander and his ancient Macedonians, even though direct blood relationship cannot be proven.

[TrueMacedonian]

Apparently this is what occurred in the British Isles, after the many invasions and immigrations (Vikings/Normans) the indigenous populations (Picts/Celts) were still largely intact even though wide spread language and cultural changes did eventually occur due to the invaders

The Vikings and Normans were eventually absorbed into the larger over all population, but due to their relative positions of power left a lasting legacy in changing the language used in Briton forever

This could also be the case anywhere in the Balkans assuming no invader was in such numbers as to overwhelm the indigenous population gene pool

One thing to note is that isolated communities such as mountain villagers are often the last to "convert" to the ways of the invader

A few reasons for this could be

1. Invaders tend to seek the richest parts of an invaded land such as fertile plains and cities for the booty they possess

2. Invading armies tend to use easier paths for transportation that are well stocked in food and resources such as major rivers, roads, coasts, and flat country

3. To secure governance of a land, invaders will target the power centers first, such as major cities and trading centers

4. Once established invaders will settle in the richest parts of that country such as fertile alluvial plains and cities and avoid wasting resources in harsh mountain countries where the climate is harsh, soils are poor, and roads difficult

5. Mountain people can easily "vanish" into the mountains before an invader reaches the villages, then just return when the invader leaves with what little they find, this would be very difficult to achieve for a city dweller

6. Being isolated allows indigenous cultures to remain less influenced by culture and language changes that have occurred in low country and cities due to foreign influences

7. Less intermarriage occurs with the invader and the mountain villager than would occur with the invader and the city dweller due to different levels of contact, thus retaining the indigenous gene pool to a greater extent in mountain communities


In conclusion if you what to look for what the indigenous populations of the Balkans looked like in culture and language, look to the mountains for inspiration, not the flat land and cities, head for the mountains if you wish to find anything rare and endangered, from old cultures to rare plants and animals

Mountains are like time capsules

An excellent observation. Which is how Vlachs in the Balkans have maintained language and customs for so long regardless if they were easily assimilated other languages. Why would Macedonians be any different.

[Struja]

"Mountains are like time capsules"

I have to agree with you on your whole statement blackcactus...

btw Spartan, for me that quote is 100% spot on... great thread guys...

[Thorvald]

What are your guys thoughts of this statement??
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated.



The Real Macedonians, Dr. John Shea, as quoted in Panorama - Vol.2 No.1, Macedonian Cultural Society "ISKRA", Adelaide, 1996; p.100

That is very correct, same happend with other countries; France, were Celts merged with Germanics, Germany were Celts merged with Germanics and Germanics with Slavs, Holland: Celts merged with Germanics, etc.

[Philosopher]

I for one don't agree with Spartan's quote. Although I am not claiming any ethnic purity in the Balkans of any sort, I don't agree with the
Slavic Migration theory. I don't believe, in any way, that today's Macedonians are an admixture of the ancients and migrating Slavs. This is sheer folly and nonesense.

It doesn't explain why Syrians, who are Middle Easterners, differ little in the genetic pool than Greeks and Macedonians and yet no Slavic Migration every occured in the Middle East.

There are too many profound and pregnant problems with the theory that today's Macedonians are a product of the ancients and some mythical people called Slavs.

Even after 500 years of Ottoman rule, there exists very little interpolation in the DNA of Macedonians with Turks. Although purity is not claimed, it is silly to argue the thesis that the Macedonian Government proposes has any merit whatsoever.

[Daskalot]

I for one don't agree with Spartan's quote. Although I am not claiming any ethnic purity in the Balkans of any sort, I don't agree with the
Slavic Migration theory. I don't believe, in any way, that today's Macedonians are an admixture of the ancients and migrating Slavs. This is sheer folly and nonesense.

It doesn't explain why Syrians, who are Middle Easterners, differ little in the genetic pool than Greeks and Macedonians and yet no Slavic Migration every occured in the Middle East.

There are too many profound and pregnant problems with the theory that today's Macedonians are a product of the ancients and some mythical people called Slavs.

Even after 500 years of Ottoman rule, there exists very little interpolation in the DNA of Macedonians with Turks. Although purity is not claimed, it is silly to argue the thesis that the Macedonian Government proposes has any merit whatsoever.

that ia a very sober observation of the genetical facts that are available today.

[Risto the Great]

I for one don't agree with Spartan's quote. Although I am not claiming any ethnic purity in the Balkans of any sort, I don't agree with the
Slavic Migration theory. I don't believe, in any way, that today's Macedonians are an admixture of the ancients and migrating Slavs. This is sheer folly and nonesense.

It doesn't explain why Syrians, who are Middle Easterners, differ little in the genetic pool than Greeks and Macedonians and yet no Slavic Migration every occured in the Middle East.

There are too many profound and pregnant problems with the theory that today's Macedonians are a product of the ancients and some mythical people called Slavs.

Even after 500 years of Ottoman rule, there exists very little interpolation in the DNA of Macedonians with Turks. Although purity is not claimed, it is silly to argue the thesis that the Macedonian Government proposes has any merit whatsoever.

Hmmm, what intrigues me is whether DNA tests have been conducted on ancient races as well? The definition of a modern Macedonian is he who represents a culmination of all of the historic events that his people have been subject to. I am positive there would have been mingling between the races. When a Roman soldier took a fancy to one of our finest, it would seem inevitable that a bit of hanky panky occurred.