The return of the Hellenes!

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  • Daskalot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4345

    The return of the Hellenes!

















    Source: "Greece: the modern sequel, from 1831 to the present" by John S. Koliopoulos and Thanos M. Veremis, 2002, pages 242-248.

    Some short information about the book:
    "...Meticulously researched...Thoroughly documented with copious footnotes, a shronology, and extensive bibliography, this work is recommended for academic libraries."
    —Library Journal

    Focusing on questions that seek to illuminate vital aspects of the Greek phenomenon, this modern history of Greece is organized around themes such as politics, institutions, society, ideology, foreign policy, geography, and culture. Making clear their predilection for the principles that inspired the founding fathers of the Greek state, Koliopoulos and Veremis juxtapose these principles to contemporary practices, and outline the resulting tensions in Greek society as it enters the new millenium.

    Challenging established notions and stereotypes that have disfigured Greek history, Greece: A Modern Sequel is meant to encourage a fresh look at the country and its people. In the process, a portrait of a new Greece emerges: modern, diverse, and strong.
    And some information about the authors;
    John S. Koliopoulos (aka Giannēs S. Koliopoulos, Greek Ιωάννης Σ. Κολιόπουλος) is a Greek historian, born in 1942.

    He is the author of "Plundered loyalties : Axis occupation and civil strife in Greek West Macedonia, 1941-1949", "Brigands with a Cause" and other books on Greek history and co-author of "Greece: A Modern Sequel" with Thanos Veremis, Professor of Political History at Athens University and President of the board of ELIAMEP.

    He is Professor of Modern Greek History at Aristotle University of Thessaloniki.
    Professor Thanos VEREMIS

    Thanos Veremis is Professor of modern history at the University of
    Athens, Department of European and International Studies and Member
    of the Board of Directors of the Hellenic Foundation for European and
    Foreign Policy (ELIAMEP) Education: Boston University (B.A. in
    Government 1965), Trinity College, Oxford (D. Phil. 1974); Lecturer,
    Panteios school of Political Science 1977-83; Research Associate,
    International Institute for Strategic Studies, London 1978-79; Visiting
    Scholar, Center for European Studies, Harvard Univ. 1983; Associate
    Professor of Political Science, Faculty of Political Science and Public
    Administration, Univ. of Athens 1984-87; Advisory Board of European
    History Quarterly (Lancaster) 1986- ; Full Professor since 1987; Visiting
    Professor at Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs,
    Princeton Univ. 1987; Director of the Hellenic Foundation for European
    and Foreign Policy (ELIAMEP) 1988-1994 ; Visiting Fellow, St. Antony's
    College, Oxford 1993-94; President of the Board of ELIAMEP 1994-2000;
    Constantine Karamanlis Professor at the Fletcher School of Law and
    Diplomacy, Medford Massachusetts; Director General of the International
    Center for Black Sea Studies (ICBSS), 2004- ; President of the National
    Council of Education, 2004- .
    Decoration: Comendatore (Italian Republic) 1994. Publications include:
    Dictatorship and the Economy, 1982; A European History of the
    Twentieth Century 1900-2000, 1982,2001 Greek-Turkish Relations,
    1986; From the Interwar to the Cold War, 1992; Greece's Balkan
    Entanglement, 1994; The Military in Greek Politics, London: Hurst & Co
    (1997); Greece, World Bibliographical Series, vol.17, Oxford: Clio Press
    (1998); (co-editor), Kosovo. Preventing Another Balkan War, ELIAMEP
    (1998), with John Koliopoulos, Greece. The Modern Sequel, London:
    Hurst & Co, (2002).

    Finally some Greeks that see thru the Greek Myth!!!!
    Macedonian Truth Organisation
  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    #2
    "Modern Greeks were in a position to construct their own version of Hellas with materials that owed much to their own considerable powers of imagination."

    To be fair, these people were educated in history in Greece, as a consequence, we can't rely on them at all.

    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • osiris
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1969

      #3
      actually they only see some of the bullshit in their myths while still clinging stubbornly to others, eg. greek being a majority langauge in the 19th century.

      Comment

      • TrueMacedonian
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2009
        • 3812

        #4
        A very good find Daskale
        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #5
          Yes, I forgot to say that. Daskale, awesome find!

          Very interesting to read that the motivation to develop the modern Greek identity at the turn of last century stemmed from the attempt to claim Macedonia by proving its "Greekness". I did not realise us Macedonians helped them to make their new identity SO much.

          From this, we can infer that they had to make themselves a new kind of Hellenic in order to prove the claim on Macedonia. (Refer to RtG's comment "If you can't beat them, be them™")

          There are some priceless statements made that make a mockery of the 5 or so Greek internet warriors doing the rounds nowadays. By Greek historians no less! Very embarrassing stuff .... very. I might even buy the book so more historians in Greece are encouraged to be honest in the future.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Sovius
            Member
            • Apr 2009
            • 241

            #6
            Veremis studied outside of the Republic of Hellas during the 1960s and 70s, which may explain the intellectual progressivism displayed in the book; though, as Osiris indicated, he still carries the effects of indoctrination. Thanks for posting this Daskalot, very informative. Perhaps, Fascism and Ottonian Pretentionism are winding down in Greece at the collegiate level.

            Comment

            • Daskalot
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 4345

              #7
              Thanks guys! DrVosi do you consider this book biased?
              Macedonian Truth Organisation

              Comment

              • makedonin
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1668

                #8
                I guess it is devastating for them.

                Do we have a email of Nimitz or Obama to send them this piece so that they can see and learn that this Neo "Hellens" have no right what so ever to demand what they demand from us!

                Last edited by makedonin; 05-05-2009, 03:15 AM.
                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #9
                  Remember, there is more to be found out there, I am in a Library all day......
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    #10
                    Let us delve into the author's discussion about other national myths as alternatives to classical Hellenism. How they could have adopted this alternative national myth and it would have been as attractive as classical Hellas and would have helped forge the modern nation.

                    I believe the authors were hitting the nail on the head. I have stated before the fundamental flaw in the modern Greek myth is that they chose to adopt this nonsensical direct link to antiquity at the expense of Albanians and Macedonians. Had they utilised a different combination of myths, God forbid, I may be sitting here defending the Slavic Greekness of my people using some alternative Byzantine/Orthodox premise to define an alternative modern Greek nation.

                    I find the authors mindset quite compelling and refreshing.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Daskalot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 4345

                      #11
                      They are very enlightened about the current issues in Greek myth making, they also hold prominet scholarly positions within the Greek academia, I wonder how this is possible when they write the things they do. Poor Karakasidou got death threats for her book.

                      But this book was never aimed towards the Greek public, it was aimed towards "western" readers. Thus they have not been publicaly whipped in Greece, but after this...... who knows.

                      Maybe members of the "Golden dawn" will contact them......
                      Macedonian Truth Organisation

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        #12
                        This is the sort of thing the Greeks should be proud of.
                        Real enlightenment.
                        Not Dora saying "we are the birthplace of democracy" because of some myth about her clearly falsified ancestry.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Pelister
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2742

                          #13
                          I can accept the point the author makes about the issue of homogonizing the nation, particularly the point about how this has been considered to be a normal thing.

                          I think think we understand the idea that if something has been Hellenized, it has been made to be Greek. What the New Greeks have trouble with is accepting or coming to terms with the facts of the place or the state of things there, before Hellenization.

                          Comment

                          • Daskalot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4345

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Pelister View Post
                            I can accept the point the author makes about the issue of homogonizing the nation, particularly the point about how this has been considered to be a normal thing.

                            I think think we understand the idea that if something has been Hellenized, it has been made to be Greek. What the New Greeks have trouble with is accepting or coming to terms with the facts of the place or the state of things there, before Hellenization.
                            Correct, how was it before Hellenisation? There is a gap in their supposed continuity, as they claim Macedonia 4000 years of Greek history or something similar stupid.
                            Macedonian Truth Organisation

                            Comment

                            • Sovius
                              Member
                              • Apr 2009
                              • 241

                              #15
                              What if Western Europeans during this period saw pretending as a bit pretentious? As ethnic Albanians are regarded as the largest minority to the south of the Aegean MKD region, I believe the natural course of history would have allowed for a Greater Albania. As the act of partition is a cruel and calculated event, there would now be different arguments used for why the ethnocide was continuing on into the 21st Century. History would still be used as a weapon and they would likely be saying that, “Macedonians are clearly Slavicized Albanians and simply need the opportunity to re-join their people to the south”. The Greek ethnocide is essentially an Albanian ethnocide from an unbiased point of view, anyway, so I don’t envision a different fate for Macedonia. The Greek partition became their breadbasket. Rather than relying on cooperation and sound economic partnerships with other regions breaking free from the Empire to cope with the food and water producing limitations inherent in the area, they chose a different course or had a different course chosen for them.

                              Comment

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